Wow.. well those statistics make it even less likely to happen.

How much tax including import tax and sales tax does the government stand to lose if all these pet shops are suddenly crippled? The government watches it's own back first and foremost.

__________________

exactly.

1 million reptile keepers would EASILY equate to 10-20 million reptiles.

Given the number of reptiles the average keeper houses/cares for.

As for pets, i would say that somthing like 80% of the british populas owns a mammal. (guesstimate)

There is no way on earth, no way whatsoever that they could ban the selling of animals.

They are already trying and as a result it is slowly slipping more and more underground...

I can buy more or less what i want animal wise, and get virtually any animal in the hobby without question. Alot of these would be CB/WC CITES1 without A10 papers, DWA on the quiet, WC from various conutries that dont permit it. (Aus, Brazil, UK, Europe...)

All this goes on under raps. If it becomes illegal, shops will close, and move into residential properties.

Drugs are illegal, but there is a self regulating industry where they are bought and sold. That is the worst they can do.

IF they do illegalise my hobby, love and passion then I for one will remain keeping, and I will also remain selling animals.

There are always loopholes to jump through. And i will find them.

__________________

as ignorant as i may sound i reckon theres about a 5% chance of this happening

__________________

Firstly, this was a discussion on banning shop sales, not private sales, yet!

As for the 'industry', the problem is that at the moment, they are too scared to stand up to them, as it will bring them the wrath of the anti's, so as sympathetic as they are, they stay quiet, they are all aware of the problem already, believe me! So they stay quiet at the moment, new laws are introduced, they go along with them on the whole. Then the EU/government move to introduce a law that they dont like, they will stand up at some point, but how much have they lost already, how much damaged will they have done to themselves already, and how hard will they find it to stand up.

Also, bear in mind that a company like Pedigree Chum are owned by the same people who own Mars, they are in the US, they do a thriving trade around the globe, do they really need to fight a battle for the UK, when they have so much more going on elsewhere??? This goes for many other Pet Supplies, most of the major ones are not UK owned!

__________________

The RSPCA wont really push for this - it would have a direct effect on their pocket.
No sales means no numpties buying meaning no need for rescues. No rescues means no adverts and by default, no cash.

On top of this the funds lost by the government through various liscenses, inspections etc.

The uproar caused by vets alone would give them cause for concern as they would certainly withdraw support through financial repercussions.

This may well have been stated by the RSPCA, i have no doubts about them saying this but they would not push for it. Above are just a few of the obvious repercussions and there are MANY more. I would suggest this has been done/said in order to keep the openly AR groups happy.

Sorry, but while i understand the reasoning behind much of your posting Rory i can not help but see this as scaremongering. I know it is a very fine line you tread in what you post on a day to day basis but for me this is well and truly beyond the mark. Posting like this will only serve to alienate you further and cause yet more of the apathy you are trying so hard to fight.
You haven't learned from the mistakes the FBH made in the posting everything technique they employed. You are scaring your target away and you need to stop that pretty quick if you want to achieve anything.

Constantly forcing an issue that people don't want to accept DOES NOT WORK. Stop going round in circles and use your collective heads. For a fresh approach this whole charade is looking more and more like a repeat of years gone by.
Don't ask me what to do, i am only one person rather than a collective or commitee. Not to mention my ideas usually aren't viable because someone else told you so or you underestimate the group you are working with. While that last sentence does sound sour it isn't meant as such, but whether you take it that way or not is up to you

__________________

Ok these are old stats from 2004 and dont include reptiles, but this is a study done by the pet food manufacturers society

In the UK, approximately 1 in 2 households own a pet
(52.3%)

In 2004 there were:

6.1 million cat owning households
5.2 million dog owning households
4.1 million fish owning households
1.96 million rodent owning households
1.39 million bird owning households

and from the fbh in 2004

and as reptile keeping is so quickly growing i wouldn't be surprised if reptiles out strip dogs now

__________________

MY SNAKES AND INVERTSLAVENDER 1.1BUTTER 1.0ABBOTTS OKEETEE 2.1BLOODRED 1.1STRAWBERRY SNOW 0.1ULTRAMEL HET CARAMEL 0.1STRIPED HOUSE SNAKE 0.1CAPE HOUSE SNAKE 0.1.1AMEL CAPE HOUSE SNAKE 1.1ROYAL PYTHON 0.1MEXICAN RED KNEE 0.0.3BRAZILLIAN WHITE KNEE 0.0.2GIANT SPINEY STICK INSECTS 2.3

Ok now ive seen the stats i reckon theres a 1% chance of it happening!

__________________

Back in November 2005 at the OATA conference I said:

Unless the pet industry and keeping organisations recognise and respond to the threat: -

Within a decade retailing of pets from pet shops will be consigned to history –

Within 2 decades keeping of pets/ companion animals will be all but extinct.

I would suggest this is still an accurate forecast. The secondary legislation concerning Pet Vending (sale of pets) will start early next year; undoubtedly there will be a call for the prohibition on the sale of cats and dogs from petshops. The reason being due to the large number of aforementioned that need to be rehomed each year, which is true, there are large numbers of dogs and cats in need of rehoming each year. However, is this the fault of petshops? – the facts are quite startling, over the passed decade the number of pets shops that sell cats and dogs has declined by some 90%, yet the numbers of cats and dogs that need rehoming has increased by over 30%, clearly the sale of such animals from petshops is not the primary cause of such animals needing rehoming! Nevertheless, this has not stopped the ‘nutcase’ brigade from championing this as the cause.

If we see a prohibition on the sale of cats and dogs from petshops would it end there? No, clearly not, the RSPCA are now championing rabbit as a major problem, yet again citing petshops as the cause of the problems. Will we see a prohibition on the sale of animals from petshops overnight, as we may see in other countries, no. What we will see is a chipping away at the peripheries, cats and dogs today, rabbits tomorrow and who knows for the day after!

Fantasy, well 90% of petshops have stopped selling cats and dogs, did we see a big outcry against this?- no. So why will we see such an outcry if rabbits are prohibited from sale tomorrow, or reptiles the day after?

My argument isn't about the pet shop side, but about the sureness of a total ban on pets within your timespan, to be honest, i reckon the reason that there wasn't any outcry when dogs and cats were stopped in pet shops, is that the majority of people never did get cats and dogs from petshops, most people(or most that i know of) always go directly to the breeder, especially for KC registered dogs, and thinking about it, im my short lifetime of 33years, i personally dont think ive ever seen cats or dogs in pet shops ever

Now i believe if this was to happen with reptiles, amphibians, inverts, birds, mammals and fish there would be a totally different reaction, as that is the other side of the coin where the majorityis purchased from petshops

__________________

MY SNAKES AND INVERTSLAVENDER 1.1BUTTER 1.0ABBOTTS OKEETEE 2.1BLOODRED 1.1STRAWBERRY SNOW 0.1ULTRAMEL HET CARAMEL 0.1STRIPED HOUSE SNAKE 0.1CAPE HOUSE SNAKE 0.1.1AMEL CAPE HOUSE SNAKE 1.1ROYAL PYTHON 0.1MEXICAN RED KNEE 0.0.3BRAZILLIAN WHITE KNEE 0.0.2GIANT SPINEY STICK INSECTS 2.3

Sorrychris, but can youtell me where this information iscoming from? ive been looking on the defra site about the second legislation proposals concerning pet shops and can only find this

Defra, UK - Animal Health and Welfare - Animal Welfare - Animal Welfare Act

and on pet shops and pet fairs, even pet fares, being a hotbed with certain groups, seems to just want to remove buisness and dont even have plans to licence these events let alone ban them for breeders selling excess stock

Defra, UK - Animal Health and Welfare - Animal Welfare - Animal Welfare Act


Maybe im missing something totally, ive never been brilliant looking over legal documents as the wording is always a bit mis-leading, but i cant see where abouts these proposals are?

Don't get me wrong, im not doubting your convictions/fears but i'd personally like to read it myself/print it out

__________________

MY SNAKES AND INVERTSLAVENDER 1.1BUTTER 1.0ABBOTTS OKEETEE 2.1BLOODRED 1.1STRAWBERRY SNOW 0.1ULTRAMEL HET CARAMEL 0.1STRIPED HOUSE SNAKE 0.1CAPE HOUSE SNAKE 0.1.1AMEL CAPE HOUSE SNAKE 1.1ROYAL PYTHON 0.1MEXICAN RED KNEE 0.0.3BRAZILLIAN WHITE KNEE 0.0.2GIANT SPINEY STICK INSECTS 2.3