Re: lack of responses...

Rory, i'm not trying to be insulting or anything as i can only go off 'me' but it might get more attention in shorter posts. I started reading, saw it was a huge post and thought 'meh, bollocks to that'. Then when i skipped down the thread i saw more long posts and just read bits of them.
Lots of people use the net and forums at work and don't have the chance to read so much as they're always looking over their shoulder (like i am typing this). Plus out of 100 people you'll only get a small percentage who will read a long post and the majority of those will be the ones who are as dedicated to the cause as you are.
There may be a lot of people who fully agree with you (possibly me included if i had the attention span to read so much in one sitting) and would reply but just don't have the chance, time or possibly patience to read long posts..

like i said, not having a pop just explaining it the way i see it..

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Meko,

I agree with you, so does Nerys, so did Ratboy and no doubt, so do many people on the forums.

My problem is that some of the posts l write are short, and then l am asked to elaborate and that makes it longer as an answer. Then l write long posts, and it is considered too long and then people will have an issue with that.

Sadly however, we have an issue which is in many peoples eyes, long winded to begin with.

This is unavoidable, its legislation, its politics, its procedure, and that is the problem there.

If we lived in a climate that was made up of short legislation, then our writings would be smaller.

Forums are made up of short posts, people - writers can amass huge posts within very short periods of time by posting little snippets here and there, as an example - you joined in April 2007 - Dec 2007 - and you have 1954 posts to your name which roughly equates to 244 posts a month, broken down further - in a 30 day month average = 8 posts per day.

Please forgive me, this is just an example.

So one can see, that some writers, many in fact only join forums for some quick talk,advice, humour, tips, opinions and comments in the main.

And again - legislation is not as cut and high dry - as that.

But yes, l think l have reduced my writing length overall - l know l am an editors worst nightmare! But we are not dealing with something that can be dealt with in that short a manner - even the cop's we would write would need to be no longer than five pages, other wise they will not be taken seriously.

Rory

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As for PKL writing the cops i agree i honestly think that not only would it be better for the keepers but it would benefit a lot of us in the long run to have some one like Nerys (who is a respected keeper, member and friend to some) being a part of making the cops.
My next question would then be
What (in laymens terms) would PKL be asking the keepers to contribute to the cops, apart from experience and support etc what exactly would PKL be asking of us if anything?

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Faith,

We need to construct working groups - keepers who want to endeavour to make a difference to their passion of keeping animals.

A lot of these cop's are written by 'coigned specialist and professional keepers', zoo keepers, vets, and so on.

The biggest problem we have with mammals and reptiles is that the list is vast in species range alone - look at reptiles itself - the species list kept is huge.

If l was to take my thread Top Ten UK Sellers: Top Ten UK Sellers?

Then here we have a series of grouped reptiles, that a code of practice may have to be written for each unless we can find neutral ground in which we can amass certain reptiles within one code.

As an example loose as it is:

I know mammals, better than l know reptiles [yes l know that is apparent, lol], but lets take Racoons, Kinkajous and Coatimundis, same family group, but in many ways they are all different. Would one cop manage them all?

In the RSPCA eyes, perhaps not, in our eyes possibly, with a distinct break in the introduction, we could show three species in the one cop. Slightly differently in their husbandry, but with careful considerations we could make it possible.

Lets look at reptiles, and this thread: Whats the ideal set up for.....?

This is for the Leopard Gecko, now with the few answers present, does everyone agree with that husbandry code?

For this is the main issue, one keepers husbandry will be quite possibly different to the next, so you have to make the cop fair and judicial, so that each keeper can see it as being realistic.

One keeper of snakes may swear blind to keeping them in plastic, whilst another may swear to traditional vivs. If we reach a neutral ground on vivs, instead of a biased view, then perhaps both can be seen as acceptable.

The RSPCA do not want to see snakes in plastic, but keepers will want to do that for space, and ecconomics.

As to what PKA are looking for, well in the main, we are looking for the submission of care guides in a format that we will lay out, and then we will have the long arduous task of finding the neutral ground.

That would be the first step.

R

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Your right there is a very vast species list for reptiles let alone anything else and ive seen the leo thread and replied
I understand a middle ground needs to be found and the main problem with reptiles for example leopard geckos is the substrate divide its been going on for years and will most likely carry on for years to come.
I personally think trying to get as close as we can to the enviroment the species has come from would be a great start for the cops.
You will never get everyone to agree that one way is better than another you just have to look at the care sheets submitted on here to see that but there is def a pattern in the way people keep their reptiles and i guess once you have found that pattern then PKL would go from there?
Ill offer my services any where i can in regard to opinions etc and leos are what we do my OH has been caring for them for 20 yrs in Jan so most of my knowledge comes from learnging from the reptiles we have and he kicking me up the bum if i do something wrong lol

If you need a few copies of care sheets im sure if you asked people to submit their own for different species they would, but try posting in the snake section and the lizard section for those as most topices get seen in there

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if you are going to have cops that aim for naturalistic setups etc then you will immediately wipe out all the professional and semi professional breeders in the UK,then you will have no animals to buy.................job done and we can all shut up shop and go play bowls instead
regards gaz

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captive bred boas and tree boas a speciality

http://www.gazboas.co.uk

Agent V is a funky lumberjackwith a funky lumberjacks outfit(in black)

understandable gaz but i wasnt on about trying to make a desert in our living rooms we have over 60 leos and i know that we wouldnt be able to re create the natural enviorment perfectly but with temps substrates and natural foods we could get it close.

Not only that if the rspca had their way on viv sizes etc then you wouldnt be able to keep them anyway not the way we do in racks and tubs
So whats the lesser of two evils?
A animal lover writing the cops with input from the animal comunity or the rspca writing them ?

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those of us using racks already recreate the standards of the natural enviroment of the species concerned and the rspca feel its no good anyway,best bet as you say is for us to be writing the cops,then we can write in enough lee way to accomodate all the valid styles of reptile maintainance and breeding.
or we could bugger off elsewhere,somewhere where the rspca doesnt exist
regards gaz

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captive bred boas and tree boas a speciality

http://www.gazboas.co.uk

Agent V is a funky lumberjackwith a funky lumberjacks outfit(in black)

ermmmmmm, lol the thing is i dont want to bugger off to somewhere where they dont exsist i like it here.
Id much rather stand and right for our rights than run in the other direction

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all very well to say that but the writing is looming large on the wall,and this countries various governments have quite a track record for destroying perfectly legal pastimes ,rights or no rights,so some forward planning is sensible
regards gaz

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captive bred boas and tree boas a speciality

http://www.gazboas.co.uk

Agent V is a funky lumberjackwith a funky lumberjacks outfit(in black)