Nerys please send my love to stompy and mj's mummy and daddy i am gutted for then my thoughts are with them both

kylie
xx

__________________

RIP Frodo mummy will always love you
www.freewebs.com/lutonferretrescue

Thoughts for Lou and Ray - I am soo soo sorry to have had to read this

R.I.P Stompy and Mary-Jane - sleep well

__________________

that is so sad

words fail me at times like this ....

__________________

Life is either a daring adventure or nothing. Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature. .... Helen Keller

For the higher K concentration foods (celery/broccoli) they'll probably just pass through the digestive system and be dealt with in the bodys normal fashion...it looks like grapes may contain a neurotransmitter/enzyme that actually tells the body to keep more K than it should (rather than actually introducing the K itself).

It is a wonder that if it affects so many mammals that it doesn't effect humans , maybe it would in high enough quantities? Are they ok to feed to birds? I've often given by budgie half a grape as a treat and he loves them .

Very sad to hear though ...losing any pet is bad but losing one of the kind which bonds closely to you must be much worse.

__________________
Available:
3.2 normal corns (08s) het amel, bloodred, charcoal and lavender
£60 each or £100 a pair
More info
Pictures

I think Nerys grapes should be struck off diet lists ... period!

I have a sneaky feeling that grapes contain cyanide - but I'm NOT sure on that one! I know that in hot countries where a lot of grapes are grown they use DDT in areas that have a high population of mosquitos.

I think ALOT more research needs to be done. Did Lou tell you how or why the vet came to the conclusion it was the grapes?

Intravenous - there was an article in Cage and Aviary Birds last year about a parrot breeder who lost all her birds after feeding them half a grape each! I don't understand why SOME grapes seem to be super toxic (it seems) and some aren't?

I don't think they do (I'm checking just now though)...almonds do so I don't know how well they'd go down.

Hmm .

__________________
Available:
3.2 normal corns (08s) het amel, bloodred, charcoal and lavender
£60 each or £100 a pair
More info
Pictures

The cyanide I'm really not sure about! I no longer have the issue with the article in, but TBH I think don't feed grapes! Better safe than sorry

the cyanide is contained in the seeds..

likewise it is in apple, peach etc etc

When we think of dangers lurking in our food, we tend to concentrate on the threats posed by chemical additives or by improper and careless handling. Yet the truth is that we routinely come into contact with naturally occurring poisons in a number of the fruits we ingest.

Apples are one such fruit: their pips (seeds) contain amygdalin, a cyanide and sugar compound that degrades into hydrogen cyanide (HCN) when metabolized. Cyanide itself is a poison that kills by denying blood the ability to carry oxygen and thereby causes its victims to die of asphyxiation. At least within the realm of murder mysteries, cyanide is the darling of poisoners because it acts quickly and irrevocably — once a fatal dose has been ingested, there is no effective antidote, and death takes place within minutes. It is sometimes described as having a bitter almond smell, but it does not always give off an odor, nor can everyone detect the scent. Cyanide is usually found joined with other chemicals in compounds: hydrogen cyanide, cyanogen chloride, sodium cyanide, and potassium cyanide. In the death camps of World War II, the Nazis used hydrogen cyanide (Zyklon B) for their gas chambers.

Luckily for those fond of their Granny Smiths, the body can detoxify cyanide in small doses, and the number of apple seeds it takes to pack a lethal punch is therefore huge — even the most dedicated of apple eaters is extremely unlikely to ingest enough pips to cause any harm. Yet those who have heard apple seeds house a poison (usually remembered as arsenic, a quite different though equally deadly compound) cling to the frightening belief that swallowing a small number of pips spells instant death. We've had folks fret to us that ingesting as few as three apple seeds would do someone in, a "fact" which, if true, would mean each and every one of us was flirting with the grim reaper every time we made a grab for a delicious


Apple pips also have a tough protective coating which makes swallowing them even less of a risky proposition; unless the pips are pulverized or masticated, the amygdalin they house remains safely contained within. Apple pips have hard, durable shells that allow them to pass intact through the digestive systems of animals, a quality which helps the apple to reproduce by distributing its seeds to new locations far from the originating trees. Were apple pips susceptible to the eroding effects of digestive juices, apple trees could not reproduce nearly as well as they do — their seeds would not be so widely spread, and a good many of the pips would be destroyed before germinating.

Cherry, peach, and apricot pits also contain amygdalin; the latter two, at least, in potentially harmful amounts. Fortunately, peach and apricot pits are sufficiently large and hard that few people intentionally swallow or chew them.

__________________

marie...

from what i gather, stompy and MJ got into a box of grapes overnight.. its not like lou and ray fed them a bowl of them you know?

from reading between the lines.. i would guess it was monday night they got into the grapes.. ray found MJ limp and lifeless tuesday lunch and rushed her to the vets... stompy started to act odd later that day, so they rushed him down too.. and basically it all went tits up from there on. Stompy died at 8am weds morning, and MJ at 4pm that afternoon.

as it says for the dogs, if you find you pet has broken into and consumed a large amount of grapes, we now know it would be wise to take them to the vets as soon as you can, where they may be able to countact it (See above for where it says about it in the dog link)

N

__________________

grape seeds.. actually... i can't find reference to them containing it... but i can find...

washingtonpost.com - nation, world, technology and Washington area news and headlines

"There's no amygdalin in grape seeds"


and the only other mention of it really, is two Chilean grapes containing cyanide, that had been spiked..


i can find mention of them being toxic also to cats too tho


wikkipedia has this to say:

Grape and raisin toxicity in the dog is a potential health threat to dogs that have eaten grapes or raisins. It can cause the dog to develop acute renal failure (the sudden development of kidney failure) with anuria (a lack of urine production). The phenomenon was first identified by the Animal Poison Control Center (APCC), run by the American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (ASPCA). A trend was seen as far back as 1999.[1] Approximately 140 cases were seen by the APCC in the one year from April 2003 to April 2004, with 50 developing symptoms and seven dying.[2]


The reason why some dogs develop renal failure following ingestion of grapes and raisins is not known. Types of grapes involved include both seedless and seeded, store bought and homegrown, and grape pressings from wineries.[3] A mycotoxin is suspected to be involved, but one has not been found in grapes or raisins ingested by affected dogs.[4] The estimated toxic dose of grapes is 32 g/kg (grams of grapes per kilograms of mass of the dog), and for raisins it is 11–30 g/kg.[5] The most common pathological finding is proximal renal tubular necrosis.[6] In some cases, an accumulation of an unidentified golden-brown pigment was found within renal epithelial cells.[7]


Vomiting and diarrhea are often the first symptoms of grape or raisin toxicity. They often develop within a few hours of ingestion. Pieces of grapes or raisins may be present in the vomitus or stool. Further symptoms include weakness, not eating, increased drinking, and abdominal pain. Acute renal failure develops within 48 hours of ingestion.[4] A blood test may reveal increases in blood urea nitrogen (BUN), creatinine, phosphorus, and calcium.



Emesis (induction of vomiting) is the generally recommended treatment if a dog has eaten grapes or raisins within the past two hours. A veterinarian may use an emetic such as hydrogen peroxide or apomorphine to cause the dog to vomit. Further treatment may involve the use of activated charcoal to absorb remaining toxins in the gastrointestinal tract and intravenous fluid therapy in the first 48 hours following ingestion to induce diuresis and help to prevent acute renal failure.[1] Vomiting is treated with antiemetics and the stomach is protected from uremic gastritis (damage to the stomach from increased BUN) with H2 receptor antagonists. BUN, creatinine, calcium, phosphorus, sodium, and potassium levels are closely monitored. Dialysis of the blood (hemodialysis) and peritoneal dialysis can be used to support the kidneys if anuria develops. Oliguria (decreased urine production) can be treated with dopamine or furosemide to stimulate urine production.[5]
The prognosis is guarded in any dog developing symptoms of toxicosis. A negative prognosis has been associated with oliguria or anuria, weakness, difficulty walking, and severe hypercalcemia (increased blood calcium levels).[6]



ASPCA: ASPCA Animal Poison Control Center Issues Nationwide Update: Raisins and Grapes Can Be Toxic To Dogs


http://www.aspca.org/site/DocServer/...pdf?docID=3782


Sign In page - International Veterinary Information Service - IVIS


Merck Veterinary Manual


(Ingestion of grapes or raisins has resulted in development of anuric renal failure in some dogs. Cases reported to date have been in dogs; an anecdotal report exists of a cat developing renal failure following ingestion of 1 cup of organic raisins. It is not known why many dogs can ingest grapes or raisins with impunity while others develop renal failure following ingestion. The condition has not been reproduced experimentally.
Pathogenesis: The mechanism of toxicity is unknown. Affected dogs develop anuric renal failure within 72 hr of ingestion of grapes or raisins. Estimated amounts of grapes associated with renal injury in dogs are ~32 g/kg; amounts of raisins associated with signs range from 11-30 g/kg. Clinical Findings: Most affected dogs develop vomiting and/or diarrhea within 6-12 hr of ingestion of grapes or raisins. Other signs include lethargy, anorexia, abdominal pain, weakness, dehydration, polydipsia, and tremors (shivering). Oliguric or anuric renal failure develops within 24-72 hr of exposure; once anuric renal failure develops, most dogs die or are euthanized. Transient elevations in serum glucose, liver enzymes, pancreatic enzymes, serum calcium, or serum phosphorus develop in some dogs. Diagnosis: Diagnosis is based on history of exposure, along with clinical signs. Other causes of renal failure (eg, ethylene glycol, cholecalciferol) should be considered in the differential diagnosis. Treatment: Prompt decontamination of significant ingestion of raisins or grapes is recommended. Emesis can be induced with 3% hydrogen peroxide (2 mL/kg; no more than 45 mL), followed by activated charcoal. With large ingestions or in cases where vomiting and/or diarrhea has spontaneously developed within 12 hr of ingestion of grapes or raisins, aggressive fluid diuresis for 48 hr is recommended. Renal function and fluid balance should be monitored during fluid administration. For oliguric dogs, urine production may be stimulated by using dopamine (0.5-3 µg/kg/min, IV) and/or furosemide (2 mg/kg, IV). Anuric dogs are unlikely to survive unless peritoneal dialysis or hemodialysis is performed, and even then the prognosis is guarded. )


Acute renal failure in dogs after the ingestion of...[J Vet Intern Med. 2005 Sep-Oct] - PubMed Result


Canine renal pathology associated with grape or ra...[J Vet Diagn Invest. 2005] - PubMed Result


hope thats of some interest to some of you, i know it will go right over the head of some, but hope it helps some too.


N

__________________