RAW Feeding (BARF/RMB) for newbies - Page 33

labmad · #**321** (**permalink**) 12-11-2008, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myo

I don't even know what I'm saying any more

I aint wanting an argument at all, it's just the way you puts things across, for example, by saying you would want to add a more varied diet, if you or anyone for that matter actually looks at what the whole BARF, RMB diets consist of then you would realise that once you have got the right source outlets, it would soon become apparant that you have PLENTY of food for them to eat etc etc

As for the name calling and me adding my 2 penniths worth, geeshh thanks, I've been called worse by pre-pubesent rascals before, oh sorry I'm stooping to your level now

As for the quote at the top - you nailed it

Feel free to research and then come back and have an adult conversation when you actually know what the hell you are on about

Ssthisto · #**322** (**permalink**) 12-11-2008, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myo

I've had people saying that dogs are carnivores and I've tried to say they are actually omnivores

I would be inclined to say that dogs are omnivores in the same way that horses are. Opportunistic omnivory when something tasty presents itself - but dogs are designed and built primarily for carnivory, same as wolves, which they biologically essentially still are.

A horse will eat a bacon sandwich if you give it one - but that doesn't mean that they NEED bacon sandwiches in their diet, nor that you should start feeding them a significant portion of meat because they're obviously omnivores (heck, they even have canines... if you don't have them pulled out). It just means that your horse liked the taste - and probably particularly the salt - in the bacon sandwich.

A dog will eat fruit, vegetables and grains - particularly if the latter two are presented in a palatable manner - but it doesn't mean they need more than a tiny amount - like what might be sticking to green tripe - because they're still carnivores. I wouldn't have a problem with giving a raw-fed dog a carrot or a bit of fruit or some greens, but not as a major part of the diet. And I personally don't like the idea of feeding anything that's not built to eat it grain, because I know what dickens it plays with my own guts!

Quote:

I've had people trying to belittle me with pictures of dog skulls,

Not at all. I just wanted to know if you, the poster who said that dog's teeth are now "designed" to eat kibble/vegetable based food, could tell the difference between an actual dog's skull and an actual wolf's skull. The fact that they are so similar that most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference (and I deliberately found photographs that reflected that, yes) says that dogs are still functionally and biologically wolves.

I do wonder if that "flat place" at the back of the rearward tooth that you mentioned the show talked about is present in dogs that have ALWAYS been fed raw bones, dogs that are SOMETIMES fed kibble or dogs that have ALWAYS been fed kibble... because it could be an unnatural wear pattern derived from diet rather than a natural growth pattern. Give me a few months and I could probably wear down my own teeth in such a way as to imply, say, a diet of raw clams straight from the shell (bevelling on the front teeth where they're used to pry the clams open) ... but that doesn't mean I was born to grow clam-eater's teeth.

Quote:

I've had people who are somehow thinking I'm having a go at raw diets and wanting argue.

Congratulations, you're posting on a forum. What you say can and will be picked apart if someone disagrees with you.

If someone has other facts they'll present them - it's nothing personal, we're just writing to words on a screen, we don't know you but we know what your words say, and if we believe they're wrong we'll tell you about them (at great length, in some cases!) You stated things as fact that other people disagree with and believe are myth or at best only partial fact. Therefore, we present what we believe or know to be true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by labmad

the boxes arent massive and will be fine for a bus ride, but should you walk home 15mins with it you may be puffing a bit

Ahhh. We may have to go down and have a look then - the spare freezer would do fine for cat food. As for the butchers, it was more for people-food

I just don't know many in the area, and would like to start getting my own meat from a butcher rather than Tesco.

And Fenny - I'm not disagreeing with your experience, and I know of cats and dogs that have had good long lives on kibble too. But the combination of kibble and skimmed milk from the elderly couple down the road is what's destroyed my specific cat's teeth... wish they'd been giving him fresh goat's milk straight from the tap instead!

I must admit I don't drink milk either - I definitely seem to have an intolerance to lactose, although I can get away with cream and cheese in greater quantities. A spoonful of semi-skimmed in my coffee is enough to have me doing the fifty-yard bathroom dash *sigh*.

Myo · #**323** (**permalink**) 12-11-2008, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenwoman

I'm afraid I can't take your comment seriously given that you have no idea, have never seen a BARF fed dog eat a carcase nor fed one yourself.
What mess do you imagine there is given that they eat the lot?
Are you really so flipping mimsy that a little bit of hair or something else left in the garden is going to give you a nervous breakdown?
You will see on the photo of the 2 chihuahuas tearing at a rabbit carcase that it is in my house in the middle room which is tiled as I consider carpets to be filthy dirty unhygienic things.
They ate the whole rabbit, nothing left. It may have taken them a day to do it, they may have taken bits of it outside to chew on but heck, that's what dogs do.

As said, I'm basing it on a dog I owned that got a rabbit. it wasn't just a bit of fur in the garden. The dog had eaten a leg and torn the rest up all over the garden.

You think carpets are filthy unhygenioc things and yet you let your dogs maul a dead rabbit in your house? that's just odd.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenwoman

I haven't had the same experience as you with cat kibble. My 2 old boys died aged 18 and 19 respectively. They were fed almost exclusively on kibble apart from whatever they caught for themselves. Neither had a day's illness until they died and neither had any teeth lost either. Both had sparkling white gnashers right until the day they were pts to prevent suffering.
But then, although I feed whole carcases to my cats and dogs, I also feed kibble, just as I feed the tortoise on some pellets too. I don't believe that manufactured diets are all the work of the devil. Mind you, I wouldn't rear a giant breed pup on pure kibble but I don't think it is all bad for adults with less protein requirements.
And my cats get milk daily and always have done for as long as I've had cats and goats. So do the dogs if I have a surplus. Nobody has gastric troubles from it I have a theory that since they get it daily, they are lactose tolerant.Just as we humans have milk daily when we don't require it and don't all suffer because of it.

Kibble? I didn't know kibble was part of a raw diet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ssthisto

I would be inclined to say that dogs are omnivores in the same way that horses are. Opportunistic omnivory when something tasty presents itself - but dogs are designed and built primarily for carnivory, same as wolves, which they biologically essentially still are.

A horse will eat a bacon sandwich if you give it one - but that doesn't mean that they NEED bacon sandwiches in their diet, nor that you should start feeding them a significant portion of meat because they're obviously omnivores (heck, they even have canines... if you don't have them pulled out). It just means that your horse liked the taste - and probably particularly the salt - in the bacon sandwich.

A dog will eat fruit, vegetables and grains - particularly if the latter two are presented in a palatable manner - but it doesn't mean they need more than a tiny amount - like what might be sticking to green tripe - because they're still carnivores. I wouldn't have a problem with giving a raw-fed dog a carrot or a bit of fruit or some greens, but not as a major part of the diet. And I personally don't like the idea of feeding anything that's not built to eat it grain, because I know what dickens it plays with my own guts!

Not at all. I just wanted to know if you, the poster who said that dog's teeth are now "designed" to eat kibble/vegetable based food, could tell the difference between an actual dog's skull and an actual wolf's skull. The fact that they are so similar that most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference (and I deliberately found photographs that reflected that, yes) says that dogs are still functionally and biologically wolves.

I do wonder if that "flat place" at the back of the rearward tooth that you mentioned the show talked about is present in dogs that have ALWAYS been fed raw bones, dogs that are SOMETIMES fed kibble or dogs that have ALWAYS been fed kibble... because it could be an unnatural wear pattern derived from diet rather than a natural growth pattern. Give me a few months and I could probably wear down my own teeth in such a way as to imply, say, a diet of raw clams straight from the shell (bevelling on the front teeth where they're used to pry the clams open) ... but that doesn't mean I was born to grow clam-eater's teeth.

Congratulations, you're posting on a forum. What you say can and will be picked apart if someone disagrees with you.

If someone has other facts they'll present them - it's nothing personal, we're just writing to words on a screen, we don't know you but we know what your words say, and if we believe they're wrong we'll tell you about them (at great length, in some cases!) You stated things as fact that other people disagree with and believe are myth or at best only partial fact. Therefore, we present what we believe or know to be true.

I have had a little look into it this morning and it is actually debatable whether dogs are omnivores or carnivores. I personally think they're omnivores and wouldn't give them a diet of nothing but meat.

Presenting facts is one thing, it's when you get people trying to be smart that irritates me. Like labmad. You can tell by reading his posts that he doesn't actually care about the subject, he's simply posting to try and make himself look good by trying to make others look bad. A very poor quality in a person. That's the problem with this site. There's a whole bandwaggon of putting people down, it really gets on my nerves. I don't even post on here in most of the threads I read because they'res allways some nob who thinks he's great. This could be a great forum, it's an awfull shame.

labmad · #**324** (**permalink**) 12-11-2008, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myo

Presenting facts is one thing, it's when you get people trying to be smart that irritates me. Like labmad. You can tell by reading his posts that he doesn't actually care about the subject, he's simply posting to try and make himself look good by trying to make others look bad. A very poor quality in a person. That's the problem with this site. There's a whole bandwaggon of putting people down, it really gets on my nerves. I don't even post on here in most of the threads I read because they'res allways some nob who thinks he's great. This could be a great forum, it's an awfull shame.

Oh no i am now sat here writing this with tears rolling down me face, i may even contemplate ending it all.......I cant take it no-more........WHATEVER - I jump on NO bandwagon, just tell it like it is, if you want a YES man then your looking in the wrong place.......

now then, how can you tell by reading my posts that I dont care about the subject - so you read the opening post in this sticky, which i went to the trouble of posting for newbies to RAW feeding, like I dont already have enough to do, but if it makes you feel better then fill your boots sugar

So AGAIN, research the subject you wish to debate, when you actually know what you are waffling about then try again - prat!

Meko · #**325** (**permalink**) 12-11-2008, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myo

I started off saying that I was told that chicken bones choked dogs. .

They probably will if you give a big dog a chicken wing and they try to swallow it whole.

fenwoman · #**326** (**permalink**) 12-11-2008, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myo

As said, I'm basing it on a dog I owned that got a rabbit. it wasn't just a bit of fur in the garden. The dog had eaten a leg and torn the rest up all over the garden.

You think carpets are filthy unhygenioc things and yet you let your dogs maul a dead rabbit in your house? that's just odd.

they don't maul a dead rabbit, they eat it. Then I get my bleachy bucket and wash the floors. I also wash them dail to remove filth brought in one shoes from outside, dust, etc. You can't do that with the carpet which traps dust, filth and smells. Get down on your hands and knees, stick your nose into your carpet and take a good long sniff. Yuck!

Quote:

Kibble? I didn't know kibble was part of a raw diet.

Didn't you?

Quote:

I have had a little look into it this morning and it is actually debatable whether dogs are omnivores or carnivores. I personally think they're omnivores and wouldn't give them a diet of nothing but meat.

no it isn't debateable. They are indeed omnivores and nobody is disputing that. Nor is anyone saying that they need to be fed exclusively on meat. See you still haven't done much research have you?

Quote:

Presenting facts is one thing, it's when you get people trying to be smart that irritates me. Like labmad. You can tell by reading his posts that he doesn't actually care about the subject, he's simply posting to try and make himself look good by trying to make others look bad. A very poor quality in a person. That's the problem with this site. There's a whole bandwaggon of putting people down, it really gets on my nerves. I don't even post on here in most of the threads I read because they'res allways some nob who thinks he's great. This could be a great forum, it's an awfull shame.

Most of the people on the forum have been here a long time. Most understand the concept of debate and are happy to discuss and disagree and argue the toss. The ones who spoil it are those who are convinced that only they are correct, despite them being obviously clueless about the subject. They then get all defensive and start accusing people of being rude, knowing it all, wanting to appear this that or the other way.
I suggest you learn about BARF befor posting, and when you post, don't take anything to herat and learn to accept that people have differences of opinion and that some will debate with you in order to prove a point. Nothing is personal, no insults are flung about, it's only a forum.

nittydavison · #**327** (**permalink**) 14-12-2008, 06:49 PM

Hello, i have been feeding my 2 dogs raw for about 3 months now. I think they are doing really well on it and it is soo much cheaper. However, a couple of people have been mortified when i have told them about how i feed my dogs and they advised me to ask my vet. So i rang up my vet and she too was mortified that i feed it and basicly told me never to feed it to them again. Now im in a dilema cos i dont know what to do for the best. My vet said something about the calcium levels in raw meat but i do feed eggs with the shells daily, also she claimed my dogs could catch a number of bacteria and illnesses from this way of feeding.
Can someone please tell me what to do. My rotty has hip dysplasia so therefore does need a good source of calcium, are egg shells enough???

Ssthisto · #**328** (**permalink**) 14-12-2008, 07:29 PM

If your dogs are doing well on the diet - and you're making sure you feed meaty bones (which have calcium) and not just raw muscle meat - I can't see why you should swap. Most vets DO get horrified... because a good deal of nutritional training in veterinary school is sponsored by the dog food companies!

Yes, your dogs COULD wind up carrying various bacteria - don't let them lick your face and wash your hands after preparing their food or cleaning up after them. Their digestive systems are equipped to handle raw and even rotting food - what do their ancestors eat?

FoxyMumma · #**329** (**permalink**) 14-12-2008, 07:41 PM

Just a quickie... Can I feed rabbits that have been killed for snake food?? rather than wild rabbits?
Ta

fenwoman · #**330** (**permalink**) 15-12-2008, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nittydavison

Hello, i have been feeding my 2 dogs raw for about 3 months now. I think they are doing really well on it and it is soo much cheaper. However, a couple of people have been mortified when i have told them about how i feed my dogs and they advised me to ask my vet. So i rang up my vet and she too was mortified that i feed it and basicly told me never to feed it to them again. Now im in a dilema cos i dont know what to do for the best. My vet said something about the calcium levels in raw meat but i do feed eggs with the shells daily, also she claimed my dogs could catch a number of bacteria and illnesses from this way of feeding.
Can someone please tell me what to do. My rotty has hip dysplasia so therefore does need a good source of calcium, are egg shells enough???

I would say change your vet. Any vet who has not even got the basic knowledge of how a dog's digestive system works and what any dog's natural diet is, would not be properly qualified to treat my animals as far as I'm concerned. Before accepting a vet's word as the gospel truth, quoestion them. Ask them about the powerful enzymes in a dog's digestive juices which kill bacteria. Surely they were taught that at vet school? How else would dogs be able to eat 'off' meat, other animals poo etc without beocoming sick. If they have no knowledge of these enzymes then I would want to know whether they completely missed this part of their training, or whether this wasn't covered at all.
Secondly, I would also ask, since raw feeding means eating whole carcasse, how the bones wouldn't be adding calcium to their diet, and what about the egg shells.
BTW calcium will have zero effect on your dog's hip displaysia which is a deformed hip joint. No calcium in the world will put right something like that, only surgery will be able to correct it.
Personally, if you have such little confidence in how you feed your dogs, that you have to listen to a couple of random people who I assume are not canine dieticians, nor have any experience in the field, and then double check with your vet, perhaps you need to make sure firstly, that you are actually feeding it all correctly, by asking people on here, and feeding properly, not just meat and vegetables etc but whole carcase with fur, bones, or feathers, or go with the flow and buy only kibble for your dog. However, I am rapidly losing faith in vets as some are keen to promote the £50 a bag, grain based rubbish and will denigrate a proper natural diet. Is it because of lack of knowledge or profit driven? Who knows.
Arm yourself with knowledge, that way, when someone expresses horror, you can blind them with science, argue your corner and give them proper reasons with all the why's and wherefore's, just like I have done and others have done. Once you have the knowledge and you know what you are doing and know that you are doing it right, you won't have to be influenced by people who have no idea.
Can you imagine my reaction if some random person told me that I wasn't feeding my dogs properly by feeding BARF? Firstly, I would tell them WTF has it got to do with them. Secondly, I'd ask what they knew about the subject and make them feel stupid if they knew nothing, and lastly, I'd give them a lecture on why and how to feed BARF and the benefits of feeding it over kibble.
Would I rush about asking loads of different people their opinions? Nope. That would just show that I didn't really understand the concept and needed others to tell me that I was doing it right.
From knowledge comes power so learn the principles of BARF and then you can tell people that they don't know what they're talking about and feel confident about it yourself. Otherwise, play safe, listen to all these random people and feed kibble.

Put on your Xmas pressie list a copy of 'Give your dog a bone' by Ian Billinghurst. Who is a vet.

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