i have never said there arent bad cases out there, there are!! but people are very quick to complain about bad husbandry, yet they rarely praise!! the message the tortoise trust seems to be giving is dont go to a pet shop, and pet shops shouldnt sell torts.
i work in a small independant pet shop, we strive to keep our animals in the best conditions, have vetenairy trained staff on site, and give prospective buyers care sheets and info to take away before they can purchase the tort- if they decide on a tort we talk them through all the care and requirements and are always willing to offer further advise if necessary- i wont pretend to know everything i dont, but i will admitt i dont know and ring other experienced keepers for correct answers. our care and dedication mean people come back again and again.

so you telling us to clean up our act and do something about it is twaddle, we are doing all we can to supply happy healthy tortoises to well informed buyers.
the tortoise trust is a waste of time, i certainly sharnt bother joining and we recommed our buyers to join the midlands tortoise keepers association, at least there helpful and on hand should any problems arise- with out throwing dirt at the pet trade.

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msn; charlottecorrick@hotmail.com

the tt is def not a waste of time if it wasnt for the guys at tt husbandry would stand still as these guys do large amounts of research. i can honestly say from my experience for one good pet shop there must be 10 bad ones. if the part of the shop where the customers see looks bad i cant imagine what the back of the shop looks like.so many people who give advise out in pet shops most have never kept a tort before and are giving out info that they think is right or have been told to say like all torts eat fruit and veg and live in fishtanks.

Again, we do not state any such thing. See above. What we RECOMMEND is that people support genuine captive-breeders, however. The reason we recommend this is because this an indigenous and active breeding scene is, in our view, preferable to mass importation and especially mass importation of wild-caught animals.

And no, it is not "twaddle". So, you operate a good, well run business.. but find yourself being tarred with the same brush as incompetent and substandard traders. Well, you will, won't you, until something is done? If the trade itself really took some strong action to get rid of persistent offenders and bring the standards in the poorly run businesses up to an acceptable level, surely, you'd be far better off, wouldn't you? If these bad stores are simply allowed to continue, then it is hardly surprising that pet stores in general will continue to have a very poor reputation, whether they individually deserve it or not.

Andy Highfield
www.tortoisetrust.org

we do support uk breeders- all torts that come through our doors are UKCB, and sourced from experienced breeders.

im not denying there is a problem, but when i have customers come in for tort advice, and they say 'oh i spoke to **** from the tortoise trust, he told me not to go to a pet shop' this is what rattles me- yes never buy from a shop where you can see inadequate husbandry or sick animals or where they just give you any old twaddle just to get a sale. but do remember there are decent shops out there who care for there animals and there animals future.
(and then the TT go and print an article like that, is it any wonder were angry???)
but being a small independant shop, we cant change this image- yes we can do our best to educate, we keep strict husdandry and records, we only stock UKCB reps, and do all we can to ensure that our animals go on to lead happy healthy lives. but what difference does this make to the overall image........sod all!!!!!!!!!

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msn; charlottecorrick@hotmail.com

I'm sorry but you cannot say it is one shops fault that they are tarred with the same brush as another shop. It doesn't even make sense. That's like saying, Tesco is a supermarket, Asda is a supermarket, if Asda sells something that's bad, all supermarkets are bad, it's Tesco's fault for not making Asda improve. A bit ridiculous.

Shops have to make money. It's business. Other shops also make money. They are competition.

One shop cannot criticise publically another shop without it being an issue of slander/libel. Shop 2 can claim that shop 1 is saying bad things purely because they stand in financil gain if shop 2 closes down. And it's true.

Shops are not impartial, they're not neutral organisations. They are not funded for the good of a campaign, trust or organisation. They are private individuals in business, in competition with each other.

Legally I don't see what standing any shop has to force the hand of another shop or correct animal welfare.

You should be asking the councils and inspectors to improve shops, who are paid to do so, who's responsibility animal welfare and license control is.

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What you have to remember is that shops like yours ARE changing the overall image, it will take time.. chin up and keep up the good work

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If all the pet shops were based on the high standards that your shop seems to have Lily-Jo then people would not have to worry - the animals would receive excellent care while with you and obviously you would provide them with all the correct info and equipment they need to conitinue that good care at home.

But what about those pet shops that are not so caring and are clearly in breach of "The Pet Animal Act 1951".

I have in the past had bad advice given to me from a so called experienced reptile keeper - who openly admits he would never have any reptiles as pets " as they dont appeal to him". Luckily I checked with a member who I trust on here and they gave me the right advice before any damage was done. Again I would have expected that chap to have known his stuff as people would be relying on him for the correct info!

I am sadly one of those people that fall into the category of not reasearching before I bought - as my little Leopard was a present!

However luckily I was put in touch with a tortoise soceity who helped me along and 2 years later I have 3 gorgeous Leopards - I have also learnt alot from some members of this forum of whom I am very grateful.

I am sure that for many people their work with animals reptiles ect is more of a vocation and not just a job.

So should we be so negetive about organizations that can clearly monitor these situations.

how on earth can anything the tortoise trust do change the reputation of petshops in general?

The TT advise that you buy tortoises from a UKCB breeder, they do not state that it should come directly for the breeder, nor do they state that you shouldn't buy a UKCB tortoise from a pet shop either, they simply state that they reccomend a UKCB tortoise.

The only way that you are going to change the reputation of petshops is for the BAD examples to clean up their act and give out better advise and husbandry information.

Unfortunatley, it is sad that some good petshops get tarred with the same brush as the bad ones, but theres not much anyone can do other than educate the bad petshops and hope they follow their advice.

I do think that anyone trying an outright ban on petshops selling animals is ridiculous. It's un-achievable, instead, working WITH the people giving bad advise is much more likely to achieve good results.
You're the first UKCB petshop i've come across, so well done.

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Josh

www.tortoise-world.com

The point of the thread is that the TT have published an article that is only negative and makes several general sweeping statements about the negativity of pet shops (see quotes in first post). This IS changing the reputation of pet shops - it is ensuring that people continue to believe the very worst about them, and that anyone new who might have had no opinion on pet shops, now has a negative opinion. The TT has a great power to educate and influence, perhaps it does not realise it.

I think all the good pet shops want is for both sides to be told, for people to understand that there are the good, and the bad. That's all... but all we ever see time and time again is the negative side. The only time the positive is emphasised is when pet shops are forced to respond to the negative in defense.

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Well, we do not actually say "don't go to a pet shop". What we actually say is "buy a genuine UK-bred tortoise if at all possible" and to be very careful of claims made by the more disreputable class of dealers (I am sure you know the names of these, we certainly do). We are aware that some shops do stock genuine UK-bred animals and we do not criticise that. We do not advise buying animals over the internet, however. We do believe it is important to check out condition and husbandry for yourself.

To be honest, I think the more well-run and professional level pet traders speak up the better, and at the same time, I think they need to speak out against the 'bad guys' who are getting everyone a lousy rep, deserved or not.

As I said before, we welcome input from reputable breeders and pet store owners. We always have done. As for that particular article, I felt that it did put across the scale of the problem. It would be nice to have an article from a pet trader who also addressed these issues and explained how it is possible to do the job properly.

Andy Highfield
www.tortoisetrust.org