It's interesting to see this discussion resurface year after year... only this time... on a level playing field.

My only question to those against pet shops... what is an acceptable standard? What is acceptable practice for an animal that is in a temporary situation.

What is reasonable.

Ed

Then I'd respectfully suggest they need to get a bit more pro-active in getting their case across. Do you know how many articles we have received from traders in the past 10 years?

Not one.

We'd certainly publish it if we received a decent article showing how it can, and should, be done. I would stress absolutely that we do not belong to the "ban all pets" movement. We have always said that pet keeping is important and valuable. We have also always said that there is a moral responsibility in that, however, that welfare (and conservation) is paramount. The problem is that for many traders, it is the very last thing on their apparent priorities.

Certainly, I think the responsible sectors of the trade need to be heard more. We're very happy to help them put their case across. All they have to do is get in touch.

Andy Highfield
www.tortoisetrust.org

Ed,

Certainly in the UK the new Animal Welfare Act sets out the obligations of keepers (even temporary ones) in terms that there is a legal requirement:

1. For a suitable environment (place to live)
2. For a suitable diet
3. To exhibit normal behaviour patterns
4. To be housed with, or apart from, other animals (if applicable)
5. To be protected from pain, injury, suffering and disease

Agreed that defining "suitable" is not easy! You could put that marker as anything from "slightly less than perfect" to "grossly substandard but still survivable"...

Personally, I would say that the environment and diet should both be of such standard that no actual harm could result from them.

That would be my preferred interpretation.

Andy
www.tortoisetrust.org

I'd think that an 'acceptable practice' is that the animals needs are met and that they are in an adequate example of the housing they will require.

I.E I wouldn't advise for someone to house a tortoise in a vivarium all of its life, therefore It'd be more acceptable for the tortoises not to be displayed in a vivarium, even for a short amount of time.

__________________
Josh

www.tortoise-world.com

Again... that is a very broad and subjective standard.

Your standard is one extreme... the standard of the 'puppy mill' is another(for lack of a better example).

Do you think you could lower your expected standard in an attempt to get the other end to raise theirs?

There are things that I do that you do not agree with... does that make you or I wrong in the practice?

This is the one huge hurdle in this industry... agreeing to disagree while at the same time keeping an open dialolg in an attempt to reach an actual compromise.

Ed

What are trade organisations for?

Most trades have such bodies and one of their typical responsibilities is to maintain standards and take action against members who breach standards. Vets have such a body, so do dog groomers... so do plumbers and electricians.

There are some in the pet trade generally too, but none of them has been very active in doing much about the present situation, have they? If they had been, there would not be a fraction of the complaints we're currently seeing.

Andy
www.tortoisetrust.org

Ed,

We would certainly be prepared to discuss what a suitable set of practical guidelines might consist of. There is a lack of clarity there at present. I am personally open-minded on the topic, and do not claim to have all the answers. We would welcome suggestions and dialogue on the subject.

The legal rules as listed above are already set in stone as far as the UK is concerned. That's a done deal. They legislated, and that's the result.

Andy
www.tortoisetrust.org

It comes down to specifics... how specific does a guideline have to be when it comes to enclosure, diet, general care both in a temporary setting intended to display an animal for sale and the advice on more perminent accomodations.

You and I know you could write a huge book if not volumes on this simple(?) topic. How do you come up with an acceptable guideline for all involved when you consider the extreme variences.

If you were even going to try... this would be the perfect forum because of the even mix of keepers.

Start a thread... What would be acceptable guidelines for keeping chelonians...

To be more specific... what would be acceptable guidelines for keeping chelonians before and after public sale?

As to the rules in the UK... they seem to be flawed one way or the other because there seems to be shops operating outside of the guidelines of the law if you believe some of the reports you read on the net.

Ed

i have to say on a personal level i find the tortoise trust rather good at promoting the welfare of tortoises and i often refer to there website and books etc. As a new tortoise keeper i found the public forum a PRICELESS source of information and i have never had an issue with the tortoise trust. The problems i have had is that some of the people that are members of the trust are such diehard extremists that i find them quite scary! they often use the Tortoise Trust as banner to hide behind. They then spout the tortoise trust information like over zealous psychotic preachers that have lost sight of the goals that the trust are trying to achieve! they simply recycle information and dont seem to care if they freak out the newer people that have come looking for help and advice. poeple are told that they are wrong, they are bad and there is NO GRAY AREA!
I know these people are not attached to the tortoise trust in anything other than a paid anuual memebrship but it is a shame that they hold such a say over the new people trying to find help and advice. they exist not on one public forum but they access many and put peole off asking for help, and unfortunately, colour peoples opinion of the TT as an organistation.

when I first found out about the TT i was in no way scared of what people said, I was so glad that there was so many people willing to help me.

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Josh

www.tortoise-world.com