i wasnt scared of the people, i dont really do scared!! but seeing the way the 'select few' berate people accross the public forums is not fair or right.People go to forums to ask for help and advcie NOT be belittled and made to feel that they are cruel and stupid. there is a select few that seem hell bent on being "tortoise police" and making sure that this is not a hobby (god forbid we enjoy caring for our tortoises!) but a cross to bare publicly and with as much martyrdom as possible, while condemning the poeple that fund the illegal pet trade or WORSE by a slovenian tortoise.

As i said before, its not the tortoise trust that i have an issue with, they offer a great rehoming service, a good website to do some research on before getting a tort, and 99%of the memebers on the public forum are good people trying to help and share the hobby. Its the few diehards that make it difficult for you to speak out for example

" oh , yes, i only feed salad , i dont collect weeds"

Is met with cries of disgust and judgement and the person is made to feel like a prat. Before you know it the person is starting to feel they dont deserve to keep that tortoise and they should rehome it. NOT made to feel that way by the TT but by some of the members. I even had PMs sent to me offering to take my hermanns as they were slovenian and needed more care. The messages were not from the trust but from a member. I only asked for info on a tort table, and i suppose that person was trying to help in there own way, but it doesnt make it right.

I dont see why we cant enjoy our hobby AND speak out our true opinions and feelings without fear of judgement or reprisal. as Ed said, this forum is on a slightly more level playing field so gives people the oppurtunity to do just that.

Longlive RFUK shelled section!!

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I think alot of the time what is actually a genuine care and concern for the tortoise can come across as being rude.

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www.tortoise-world.com www.tortsmad.com

Well, I am pleased with the response and delighted that Andy Highfield has joined the forum ( I didn't know) please let me make things clear that I was only commenting on the article by Ali on Pages 10-11 which made me very angry and not the tortoise trust overall policy on pet shops.

I support the trust and I am a member I think that it is essential to have a tortoise organisation like this, especially when it comes to their research and rescue work

My view on the T.T. is as follows:

They're great at what they do, their level of research is outstanding and the amount of fresh, intuitative info the comes form them on a regular basis is incredible. I, for one, regularly hand out articles from the T.T. website and quote tons of information from there so that my customers give their torts the best possible care. I also have all the T.T. DVDs (including the gecko one lol) and am taking the T.T. course

However, I find it increasingly hard to respect an organisation that is so one eyed. Their 'my way or the highway' attitude is appaling. Why is it that we can accept the fact that there are many methods of keeping snakes and lizards, yet there must be ONE definitive tortoise care guide.

To make people feel bad and worry about asking for advice just because they've slipped up a bit when it comes to husbandary is petty. The T.T.'s aggressive bully-boy tactics of educating people is shameful.

I completely agree with their husbandary methods, but I would never have a go at a customer or tell them that they're not fit to own a tortoise if they got something wrong.

As far as the T.T.'s view on pet shops goes, grow up! We're not like little school kids who all have to stay behind after class because the naughty kid wouldn't stop talking. You CAN'T tar us all with the same brush! That's like us telling the T.T. that they shouldn't be allowed to keep tortoises because we know a couple of people who don't know what they're doing.

The whole T.T. website slates pet shops and, although I still give them out, I have to heavily edit articles to remove such slanderous claims that pet shops don't know what they're doing. The fact is, a lot of them do, but unfortunately they don't quite have the time to go to EVERY SINGLE other pet shop in the U.K. and eductae them just so the T.T. stop having a go.

You're more than welcome to print that in your next newsletter.

__________________
Check out he hook while my DJ revolves it...

A few points:

1) I agree with those who say that some members can come over as a bit like a chelonian 'taliban', i.e. very extreme when that is not justified. I can understand people getting extreme on some topics, such as the turtle massacres and cruelty in China. That's justified (in my view), but getting too ranting and raving over husbandry issues is taking it a bit far! Unfortunately, as I've already said, we have absolutely zero control over what anyone else says. We can only answer for what WE say.

2) Regarding drawing up guidelines, I think that would take a lot of discussion and research to come up with something that is practical and meets legal and biological needs, etc., but I think it would be worth the effort (for everyone). Maybe a meeting or some-such could be set up to discuss that and develop a workable framework?

3) The current law in the UK is theoretically an improvement, but the enforcement is not consistent and some of the people making decisions know nothing about the animals concerned. That's a bit scary. An official with lots of power and no knowledge! That really needs some revision in terms of how it works.

My concern is that unless some of these issues are addressed adequately by keepers, breeders and those involved commercially, what is likely to happen is that something very unsatisfactory (to everyone) could end up being FORCED on us by crazy and unworkable legislation...

Look at the current "Health and Safety" hysteria.. and the nonsensical musical event licensing laws. Don't think bad legislation can't happen to you, or affect you, because it can.

It's far better to address problems yourself, and come up with a decent compromise.

Andy
www.tortoisetrust.org

>>However, I find it increasingly hard to respect an organisation that is so one eyed. Their 'my way or the highway' attitude is appaling. Why is it that we can accept the fact that there are many methods of keeping snakes and lizards, yet there must be ONE definitive tortoise care guide.>>

Pardon? Would you point out where we state that? Fact: we don't.

>>To make people feel bad and worry about asking for advice just because they've slipped up a bit when it comes to husbandary is petty. The T.T.'s aggressive bully-boy tactics of educating people is shameful.>>

Again, we do not do that. Ever. To anybody. Since you seem to be suggesting that we do, would you mind citing an actual example that originates directly with us?

We receive hundreds of requests for help every week and I can guarantee you that we try to answer every one as politely and helpfully as possible. We never condemn people for making mistakes, all we try to do is point them in the right direction. I also made mistakes when I started out, and I have never forgotten that.

It seems to me that yet again, you are confusing posts made on our e-mail list by third parties with what we say ourselves.


<< tell them that they're not fit to own a tortoise if they got something wrong. >>

You have my personal word that we have never said anything like that to anyone in the entire time we have been working with tortoises. It has not happened. Jill never said anything like that, and neither have I.

<As far as the T.T.'s view on pet shops goes, grow up! We're not like little school kids who all have to stay behind after class because the naughty kid wouldn't stop talking. You CAN'T tar us all with the same brush! That's like us telling the T.T. that they shouldn't be allowed to keep tortoises because we know a couple of people who don't know what they're doing.>>

What I am saying is that until the trade addresses the issue of the worst offenders, there is no doubt that the perception will remain.

>>The whole T.T. website slates pet shops and, although I still give them out, I have to heavily edit articles to remove such slanderous claims that pet shops don't know what they're doing.>>

Which articles? We certainly state that people should not in general rely on pet shop advice without checking it. That is true, in our opinion and is due to the fact that so much lousy advice originates from this source. Ever been in a PETSMART in the US?


>>The fact is, a lot of them do, but unfortunately they don't quite have the time to go to EVERY SINGLE other pet shop in the U.K. and eductae them just so the T.T. Nazis stop having a go.>>

Comparing us to people who committed genocide and torture is reasonable, is it? To me, it does not exactly sound very balanced, reasonable or friendly..

>>You're more than welcome to print that in your next newsletter.[/quote]

I don't think so, but if you can come up with something that's sensible, based on fact, and is not grossly offensive we'll reconsider.

Andy

Firstly addressing point 1 above:

I have never contributed on the TT discussion group as the extreme views of many individuals totally abhors me. I do however read the digests every day, as some useful information can be picked up, and I have to say that I have never read a post by AH which I've construed as extreme. In fact many times I have seen posts by AH which disagree with these extremists. Unfortunately though, these people not only post on the TT discussion group and their strong opinions can be found in many places on the net... RFUK being one of them in the past but fortunately it would seem not at this point in time.

Very personal, derogatory comments have been made, to myself, regarding my association with RFUK. I can honestly say that my association with a group which encourages freedom of speech, open debate and whose members will, on the whole, agree to disagree is something I am very proud of.

The TT website is my first point of reference whenever I have a query. It is the site I point any new keeper in the direction of so I find it very sad that a few individuals can alienate so many.

Your points, both in this post and others on this thread, regarding guidelines for pet shops I totally agree with. Only today have I been into a pet shop and seen tortoises kept in the most appalling conditions... overcrowded vivariums, filthy dirty water in inadequately sized bowls, substrate full of flies and the only food available limp, dehydrated lettuce. Yet I know I could have driven a few miles up the road and seen tortoises in another pet shop kept in near perfect conditions. There are good and bad... that is what everyone should remember. Not all pet shops should be tarred with the same brush and the poor ones need to be educated.

I am immensely pleased that AH has replied on this thread as I feel there have been many times in the past that input from him should have been forthcoming.

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I can't ever remember seeing a time where the TT is saying that their way is the only correct way?

If I ever see any tortoise messages on TT such as "Oh my tortoises is in a viv, I feel guilty blah blah blah" then the replies are always "Dont worry, many people do this" or "Oh, don't worry, you are doing the right thing by asking advice" its not all like;

"OMG YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG!"

Personally, I think everyone at the TT site is very good in putting forward their opinions

__________________

www.tortoise-world.com www.tortsmad.com

I think some of the upset has been caused on this forums and others who have quoted and campaigned for the TT aggressively in the past - who are not actually integral members of the TT, just people with a lot of opinion who have upset a lot of people with their attitude - it's hard to remember sometimes that they aren't actually officially speaking on behalf of the tortoise trust.

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In fact, they are never officially speaking on our behalf, not just "sometimes".

I appreciate this is a problem, and we will look into it, as clearly, there is some confusion. Likewise, I will review the wording on every article on our site to make it clear that not all pet shops are automatically bad. That said, I really do think that the 'good' traders need to get together to get some properly enforced, adequate standards in place to distance themselves from the 'cowboys'.

Until they do so, I think these problems will continue.

Interesting debate, conducted in a (relatively) polite manner.

Thank you.

Andy