So we can't blame the T.T. for the comments from extremists on their site.

Yet the T.T. can blame all pet shops for the fault of others.....

If someone says something offensive on this site, the moderators have it removed. Do the T.T. not have the same power over their own website?

__________________
Check out he hook while my DJ revolves it...

The TT arent blaming good pet shops for the bad ones mistakes what they are saying is the good ones should try and weed out the bad ones, through their associations. The TT do ban people from their forum if they get to offensive but do encourage open talk like this site but just like this site unfortunatly you do get rude people.

My bet is this is the beginning of the end of a very interesting and insightful conversation...

There is the 'you' in a conversation which leads downhill...

Then there is the 'I' in a conversation which usually keeps the lines of communication open.

I would loose the blaming aspect of this exchange and try to keep it open and civil as long as possible.

If anyone is interested in what the TT says and what the members of the TT say... check out the website and check out the yahoo group... there is definately 2 different tones.

Yea... I believe the TT is a little on the extreme side but it would seem there is room for compromise.

Ed

1. We are 100% responsible for everything on our website. We have complete control over everything that appears there.

2. We do not have control over what is said on our mailing list which is totally separate. The only thing blocked there is spam. There is a list of rules and if people break them they can (and are) removed, however, we do not censor posts, even though some fairly extreme views may appear. Just because someone post there that does not mean we agree with them. We'll often jump in and try to put over a different view, though the sheer number of users means we can't respond in every instance.

3. Earlier,someone referred to "TT ****". Come on, it does not get much more extreme or offensive than that. If you don't think so, I recommend a visit to a holocaust museum. Then you'll understand. That comment is still there.....

4. The question of what would constitute acceptable housing and diets in store is, I think, not something that could be arrived at on a forum but is certainly something that various industry bodies, official bodies and animal welfare organisations should collaborate on. We would certainly be interested in taking part in any such effort.

At the end of the day, I would have thought it was in everyone's interests to raise standards, and have a trade that is humane and sustainable. That is not what is happening right now in very many pet stores both here and in the US. The complaints and calls for increased regulation will only stop when the persistent offenders either change their ways or are out of business. Until then, they are just a continually repeating advert for everything that is wrong in the pet industry.

Andy
www.tortoisetrust.org

Up until this post I was hoping... but I knew better.

Andy, you're a very smart guy, smarter than me... no doubt but you totally blew it with this post... specifacly... the last two lines...

I was so hoping.

You lost it on those last lines.

That's the important point.


The TT is passionate in their beliefs... no fault there.

ahhhh... the extreme members that act in the name of the TT... that's another story.

Just a quick "two cents" worth. I live in New York, and probably have gone to every pet store in Staten Island, Brooklyn, Long Island and Manhattan. There are
literally hundreds. This is my first tortoise, but have had many water turtles and box turtles. I am always looking for new things for my ponds and animals. I have NEVER, NEVER gone into a pet store in New York that had the proper set ups for any land turtle or tortoise. Some have the right set ups for water turtles, but that's it. Petland Discount, PetSmart, Petco...just to name a few. Some have three or four different species in a 10 gal. tank. This is what I saw today in Petland Discount. Two Redfoots, 3 Russians all crammed in a 10 gal viv. They were very small, and the water dish was way too high for them to even get in for a soak. They are way overpriced, and the caresheet, if they give you one at all, is so generalized, that it wouldn't be helpful for any tortoise at all. If you go into a "Mom & Pop" pet store, it is a little different. They may not know everything, but they do put more of an effort into their enclosures. (that being said...I still think New York is the greatest place to live...)
As far as the TT goes, I must say they were very kind, patient and helplful to me when I got my first tortoise. Just my two cents worth....from New York.

__________________

This keys onto the point of what is acceprtble or not. I've been in Petcos and Petsmarts and a common set up for water turtlel is this amazing land/water terrarium... which they've been using for years.

Then there is Small Worlds in Manhatten (a few years ago)... not even close to a mom and pop place but totally remarkable... you are either very young or you have not hit the 'right' places or... you have that standard which... there is no such thing as an acceptable retail outlet.

Ed

Ive been very impressed with this thread,its been informative and constructive without the need for personal insults and mud slinging.Ive actually changed my opinion of the tortoise trust slightly (still have issues though!) and do believe that some of their militant members may be far more to blame for the aggressive stance shown.Co-incedently-the militants have not attacked this thread and its stayed quite polite! Says a lot i guess!

I think you misunderstand me, Ed. Particularly on the "last two lines" comment. What I was actually saying there is that as long as people keep going into pet stores and being confronted by quite obviously atrocious conditions and animals in poor health, there is no way that the pet trade a a whole is going to see the level of complaints it generates diminish. People talk. They tell each other what they saw. The consequence is that the trade as a whole gets a very bad reputation.

Unfortunately, because they are in the same business, good traders are treated with suspicion too.

The only effective way to change that is to clearly and convincingly separate the good guys from the bad, incompetent guys. That means maybe they should think about a genuinely effective Reptile Retailers Trade Association, or something similar. Not one that acts as a defender of the indefensible, like one I can think of, because there's no credibility in that. One that really does aim to set standards and actively makes sure they are met. My guess is that if they were to do that, and do it properly, it would be a huge success.

I have also been in many Petsmarts and Petcos. I will agree the land/water terrarium looks good. The problem is they have a continually changing population of turtles in and out and consequently, shockingly high cross infection rates.

Terryo just there highlighted a case where a store had Russians and Redfoots together in a 10 gallon aquarium. Is that acceptable? I guess you could argue semantics 'till the cows come home, but to me it is totally unacceptable. They have different dietary needs, different temperature and especially humidity requirements, and carry different commensal micro-flora.

It also sends the message that you can treat all species the same way, whether they come from a tropical forest zone or arid desert. This is not a good message to be giving out.

That, Ed, is why people are unhappy, and in my opinion, they have a right to be, because many of the animals subjected to that kind of thing will get sick and die on them. They have already been seriously compromised.

The sad thing is that with hardly any extra effort, that store could have changed the scenario completely, and be picking up compliments instead of complaints.

Andy

Terminology which could easily be construed as extremely offensive has been removed from this thread. Apologies to all for not removing this earlier from the initial post.

This has been an interesting debate and for the most part carried out in a polite manner. It would be good if the debate could carry on in this manner without any personal or offensive comments being posted.

__________________