Is the picture taken in their enclosure... 75 gal tank?

Both animals look flawless... very nice.

Thanks for the input.

Ed

Can I just say as a dealer and pet shop, I wholeheartidly recomend all our customers who keep chelonians to the tortoise trust website. I can also say I have had Andy down for a training day to help the staff, which aided us immensily in giving out the right advice,

Tortoises are emotive subject these days but I can say Andy has been always been keen to help shops with their knowledge and practises. I cant comment on people i dont know on here who pertain to be members of TT but I can say with all respect Andy has given me advice and for me the organisation is by far the best , I also wish all shops would work with them in order for care to be improved. We recently had a new customer who informed us they fed there tort on Jam sandwiches. Much time was then spent with the customer showing them TT information on diet and care.

What is your shops name and where is it located?

ed

Good to see Andy Highfield participating on the forum. This forum needs a full balanced insight into keeping chelonia - and as I have said many times, its what is needed. Keepers can then decide whos info they want to believe and follow. Long may Andys interaction continue. Andy is someone, in many ways, that an old hand like me can respect for his opinions. Even if my own findings have lead me to a different opinion than his. I would much rather have debate on some of the emotive topics that have caused arguments in the past on the forums now, as long as Andy continues to participate, than go back to the bad old days when some if his "foot soldiers" became nasty and personal. I would only add that I hope he can refrain from some of his past comments on his own forums, especially the ones where he hasnt taken the time to investigate the details before posting - I could use the example of one of the attacks on my shop as an example. He claimed that he doubted that Coast to Coast had even bred a tortoise at one point. Clearly wrong if he had taken the time to check it out. But, its time for dealers/shops/traders and the TT to meet in the middle for an obvious benefit to both - the trade his here, and is likely to be for some time, as best as we can, differences apart we need to try to work together. Otherwise, Im afraid I'll protect my trade and start to promote the BCG only. And that means boycotting all the Carapace Press products too.

I feel it needs to be pointed out that the dealers and shops that do a good job can be a huge database, and very useful to the likes of the TT. I'm sure that Andy sees a lot of keepers and their tortoises, but in comparison to a busy popular shop like mine, this will be a drop in the ocean. Times that by ten (or twenty, or thirty) good shops and the benefits are clear to see. Take for example the viv x table debate that was born out of the anti viv stance from the TT. The vast majority of torts sold in the UK are sold in vivs. Law of averages means that more poorly tortoises will be seen with what appears to be an obvious link. The whole picture needs to be seen, what diet? What heating? What lights? Then it can be seen that other factors far over power the claimed problems with vivs. A good example of how useful shops like mine can be is backed by some of TT's more modern literature - I was shouting about not using heat mats for tortoises well before TT around 12 years ago. There it is now, in many of the TT publications. Around ten years ago I had a bit of adverse publicity for using weeds out of the garden for tortoise feed on the shop floor! Hard to believe now but true.

I have read the post, quickly, but as best as I could in the spare ten minutes I had. I particularly enjoyed the comments from Andy and his newer views on various issues. Interesting to hear about the Lebanon, for example. Now, sorry Andy, this post has reffered to you as though you are not here, but I would ask you to clarify your feelings on Slovenia and the tortoise trade. Im sure many of the forum users will have read your past thoughts and comments, but its interesting for other users. I have other points that I would like to know more and have your clarification too. But thats a start.

__________________
Coast to Coast Exotics www.coasttocoast.co.uk
Legendary reptile breeder and shop
Zoo Logic UK Ltd - Importer/exporter/wholesaler.
http://www.zoo-logic.co.uk/

This has been a very interesting & dare I say it positive thread. Are we seeing (at long last) some form of 'consensus' forming between the commercial trade, Tortoise owners & the TT? I hope so.

I'm glad that AH has taken the trouble to get involved and 'clear the air' with respect to the TT's position on the commercial trade. I can certainly say that after reading his posts I am much more sympathetic to the TT than I was on friday morning.

I was also encouraged by his comments regarding the more 'dogmatic' members of the TT - whilst not an emphatic disassociation it does go some way to show that there can be a distinction between the views of the TT and some of it's membership.

where this gets us is anyones guess but it is certainly a step in the right direction.

Yes, this picture was taken in the "very much debated vivarium". I won't make this a long post, but there is plenty of ventilation, humidity maintained at 80 degrees F. Hot end..87 - 90, cool end 75 -78. I still don't understand why most people are against it. Well, I guess that is another debate.
I must say, this has be so interesting, especially to a new tortoise owner, like myself...too bad we couldn't get "the other guy" in on this one.

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I think that any tortoise keeper here (myself included) would certainly welcome (and deffiantely benefit) from Andys input in the shelled section. How unfortunate though, that the reason he came here, probably??? was because of the constant AH/TT bashing that has taken place of late, oh, and lets not forget the association with the word N***S too.

If I was he...I would exercise a little caution, there are early signs already showing...

What the good forum giveth, the good forum taketh away...T.T.

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Weeds...There free ya know!!!

I guess I need to say this again...

If you count the number of posts which support the TT and the number which 'bash' the TT... the support far outnumbers the bashing.

It's refressing to be able to address (YOU WILL EAT IT AND YOU WILL LIKE IT) the mentality of some of the TT members.

As to why Andy is here... he knows very well what he is doing and I think we have to exercise the caution.

TT... you have a point to this post outside of... fishing?

Ed

Hmmm. Not sure about these comments. Lets hope that Andy's postings continue so that a better understanding of TT can be established. It has to be said in many ways TT has become too insular, and needs to address some issues - so if I was to give advice to Andy, yes be cautious, most of us try to be careful how we post, but as Ed says, there is lots of support for TT here on this forum, so I think just an honest open approach to posting is probably the best option. A them and us tact is a little at odds to what we are all trying to achieve, so I hope that Andy can frequent this forum more, rather than the seemingly closed shop forums - cloak and dagger is probably some of the cause of any negativeness that may exist. I think it is an ideal opportunity for Andy, and I also for herpers like me, so I for one encourage Andy's postings.

__________________
Coast to Coast Exotics www.coasttocoast.co.uk
Legendary reptile breeder and shop
Zoo Logic UK Ltd - Importer/exporter/wholesaler.
http://www.zoo-logic.co.uk/

I am sure that Andy will continue to post, when he has the time. The TT yahoo group is there for all to join and contribute to - not "insular" at all and comments like "cloak and dagger" are really not productive IMO.

Tamie