I got my TT newsletter the other day, always good value for money, Interested to hear that the TT now does not recommend using Hemp as the splinters can cause injuries, I always was a bit worried about the splinters but lots of people use hemp so I didn't mention it.

Good to see that Tams (where she gone?!) is doing well with her adoptions and there is some good general advice.

However !, I was very disappointed to read the article pages 10-11 by Ali. No surname left. A quite remarkable attack on pet shops, Yes the torts were in a bad way but where was the criticism of the owners who's responsibility is to research there animal first. I will quote some of the comments.

"Having kept torts myself for the past 15 years (my first being a Hors field's tortoise purchased from a dreaded pet shop)"

"Thanks to the advice of yet another pet shop"

"All down to Human Greed"

"Line the pockets of unscrupulous heartless dealers who sell them on for the pet trade"

"Please help us put a stop to this vile trade."

Human Greed ? That quote really got me, people have a right to earn a living through totally legal means. I was disappointed with this ill thought out and bias article. This is the wrong direction to take from the trust and will alienate responsible pet shop people who care about their animals. I have said this before and forgive me for repeating myself but

A HEALTHY ANIMAL WITH GOOD HUSBANDRY ADVICE MEANS A HAPPY CUSTOMER WHO WILL COME BACK TO YOUR SHOP AND SPEND MORE MONEY !

I would be more happier if the Trust were trying to educate the pet trade, Tables, active UV etc not attack them. If it was not that I am a fan of Andy H and the good work that people like Tams do I would cancel my membership. But please lets all work TOGETHER to improve things not write articles like this.


In the old days I would of got slated for this thread but now thanks to a bit of balance I hope we can debate this without having a row.

I agree this is just the type of increasingly hysterical stuff we are seeing from the TT (& why I refuse to join the organisation) these days. A better more colaborative relationship with the pet trade would be in the bests interests of the Tortoises. It's a real shame they adopt this approach but I can't see anything changing for the foreseeable future. To be fair I think alot of this is to do with memories of the bad old days of the pre ban pet trade but things simply are'nt like that any more.

Personally, I have a real problem with the way some of the more active members of the TT conduct themselves. If you dare disagree with the 'party line' you are deemed a troublemaker and a tortoise abuser. They can be immensely rude and arrogant. Sadly, this attitude permeates down from the very top of the organisation.

Three cheers for the tortoise trust,as a pet industry worker i have only just realised how utterly ruthless and despicable i am-thanks to the T.T Without them id have just carried on mercilessly abusing the animals in my care,willing them to be miserable,stressed and eventually die,so i can snatch some more from the wild.Thank heavens they have pointed out the error of my ways,lets stamp out the entire pet trade today.Set them all free! Im off to find somes matches to burn myself at the stake.

The article was a contribution from an external source so not from the TT, however it being published in the TT newsletter clearly there is support for the group.

Andy recently pulblished a book via Interapet which will be distributed around the pet shops - so i think what's being proposed is already happening, i also know of occassions where Andy has given talks to pet shops i the correct care of chelonia - so i think the TT are switched on enough to know education is the way forward.

Dazza

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www.megaray.co.uk
www.kimbosreptileworld.co.uk

i work in the pet trade and took delivery of a tort yesterday and am angered by this article, yes there is no doubt there are bad pet shops, but certainly not all- we strive to keep the tort in the best conditions, and any potential buyers are given armfulls of info and contacts should they need to ask anything, infact ive had 3 tort keepers come in for advise in the last week! we are not members of the tortoise trust but are members of the midlands tortoise keepers association, who are very helpful, if we ever have a problem or are worried about a tort.

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msn; charlottecorrick@hotmail.com

As a shop owner who is a member of the TT, it does make me wonder why I am supporting them. I don't know how many shop workers / retailers actually are members of the TT but such a lack of support, and indeed, a great sense of anti pet-shops rather than attempting to improve pet shops, is going to make a lot of us in the business who are members think twice about paying up next year.

This screams of 10 years ago to be honest. A large percentage of reptile shops are now hugely improving husbandry, and more and more uk breeders are actually selling to pet shops. The days of all shops selling sick untreated imports are falling away.. there will always be a few bad eggs, but typically speaking animal welfare & council awareness & available information on care are continuing to rise, the situation should only be improving.

It is sad that the TT does not seem to be working towards the goal of improving the situation.

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No internet at home for a few weeks, may take a while to respond. Should be back to normal in Sept.

just thought i should say, NOT me!! I have actively encouraged people to sell there baby torts to the "better" petshops and when mine breed, i will sell them on the pet shops i have found that keep them in a suitable manner, and dish out good, helpful advice. They wont be going into shops that pile 10 in to one tiny viv with a lightbulb though! bugt i see no harm in supplying captive bred animals to pet shops and therefore decreasing the need for wild caught or farmed animals.

Petshops are wondeful places for kids to visit, it was better than alton towers for me when i was a kid. so if we can raise the issue of CB animals in petshops then we stand a much better chance of educating the next generation about the problems of taking animals from the wild. Something as simple as putting a sign on a viv saying "UK CB" will lead people to ask questions such as "well arent they all?" so in my eyes can only do good. and will eventually help to shut down the shops that are doing it on the cheap with farmed animals in the hundred, with no consideration for the creatures or prospective owners.

And i have to say, i havent renewed my membership with the TT this year, i dont reallactively use the forum any more either. it seems that they are opposed to petshops encroaching on the hobby and making torts available to all. i even saw on one group that a woman was quite literally attacked for incuabting three clutches of tortoise eggs. they claimed that a good responsible home could not be found for tortoises anymore any the responsible thing would be to destroy them as "you couldnt give themaway". i was quite frankly appalled and after a little research found that 2 of the 3 people involved in the witch hunt bred torts themselves and sold the for £100 each. So its really just TOO cliquey for me now. there were some very helpful and kind people on there though so its a shame. but i would much rather be in a group like this where one can actually voice a true opinion, regardless of what it is, and have a grown up debate without about being judged.

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The goat made me remember!! all hail the mighty goat

I agree with you there, from what I have seen.

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I would like to take this opportunity to respond to some of the points made, as they do not accurately reflect our position at all and seem to be based upon a number of misunderstandings.

1. The article in question was not written by us, however, the fact is that for every report we receive that reports good advice and satisfactory husbandry in pet shops we receive vastly more detailing dreadful advice. Examples include incorrect information on diet, poor advice on housing, and in some cases even the species being sold is mis-described. It is time that instead of retreating into denial, the pet trade itself took serious action to self-regulate this kind of thing. I also visit pet shops myself, and the above is not merely based on second-hand reports. I encounter it on a depressingly frequent basis. Nor does it reflect conditions "10 years ago". I was in one large chain only last week where over a dozen T. hermanni and T. horsfieldii were together in one small glass tank on a wood chip substrate, with lettuce, tomato and pieces of carrot (!) thrown in. All appeared dehydrated. They were inactive and several had evident eye infections. I asked about them and was told "you'll need a tank like this because they can't go outside for at least 4 years". Right. Unfortunately, then, this is what is really going on, so when cases are bought to light and complaints result, I hardly think the trade has any right to feel hard done by. My advice is simple. Clean up your act and do something about it.

2. We are not anti-pet trade. We are pro-responsible pet trade. I believe that pet stores CAN operate ethically, and I believe that in fact, they would profit by doing so. There ARE good pet stores out there, the only problem is that they are vastly outnumbered by what I'd consider to be very poorly run operations.

3. We are happy to work with responsible traders. We have held training days and similar events for them. We also have traders who have taken our online course. We have never criticised the trade in general, only specific actions by a certain element.

4. I totally agree that owners who buy animals without researching their needs first are equally to blame. That is something we continually stress, and have done for years.

If any dealer would like to send in an article discussing this from "the other side of the counter" we'd welcome that very much. I do believe that dialogue and education is the way forward. However, pretending that a very serious problem does not exist is not going to help. If nothing is done, then it is very likely that something will probably be enforced on everyone sooner or later, and in such cases, that is never the best solution.

Really, I think it comes down to the trade itself recognising that there is a real problem here and taking genuinely effective steps to bring about some much needed improvements. If that is done, the complaints will diminish and animals (and owners) will be better off. So will people running pet-related businesses.

Andy Highfield
www.tortoisetrust.org

You are confusing comments made on a public forum by people who may not even be members with our actual policy. You state "they claimed that a good home for tortoises could not be found anymore". Who did? Certainly not anyone with any authority to make statements on our behalf.

We do not hold that view and have never said any such thing. We do not, however, censor every post that might appear just because we do not agree with it. We do not agree with much of what is said on the discussion list, but that's all it is. A public discussion list that anyone can join regardless of whether they are even a member or not. To infer that statements made there by (often anonymous) posters reflect our own beliefs or policies is simply not accurate at all.

We have zero control over what other people do or say. Our position on the pet trade is VERY clearly set out on our website:
http://www.tortoisetrust.org/activities/guidelines.html

That is the TOTALITY of our position. There is nothing to add. You will note it does not state (anywhere) any general opposition to pet shops. It simply sets out some conditions we'd like to see in place.

What any third party says is neither here nor there. It has no validity. The only thing with validity regarding our position is the above.

Andy Highfield
www.tortoisetrust.org