Before you can say you are feeding 'too much' protein I would think that a person would have to know what is enough protein.

When feeding whole food items... how much of that item is actually protein.

Protein has no bearing on the form of the shell. Protein can be responsible for quicker or larger than average growth. I don't see where this can have any bearing on the health of the turtle if all of the other conditions required for good development are in balance.

Anyway... balance does seem to be the key.

Ed

Certain foods contain more protein than others. When feeding a pellet-based diet much of the protein needs are met. Feeding a high protein food will therefore give the turtle more protein than necessary causing the problems i stated.

Quicker/larger than average growth of the turtle happens inside the shell - where the turtles body is contained, the shell therefore becomes deformed. Feeding too much protein in that case would present shell problems such as is seen when the shells appears to 'turn up' at the edges.

Protein therefore DOES have a bearing on the shell.

Balance is the key.

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Proud to be a Dagger

Without evidence it might be more properly stated that some believe that excessive protein can lead to some health issues.

I'm not one of those people who believe excessive protein can lead to health issues. Does this mean I'm suggesting the feeding of as much protein as possible... no.

What I'm suggesting is that it should not be a worry if you are feeding whole food items as part of a varied diet.

It's becomming pretty well established that environmental conditions are your primary factor in proper development.

It might be, but not by me. I post based on my beliefs. What i believe is what i stated. You can read like a textbook all you like, but i dont care to.

No,you aren't suggesting that. In fact,in a thread where someone came seeking advice you dont seem to be suggesting anything of benefit at all.

Who mentioned 'whole food items' anyway?!?!

It is? Well backed up! Oh wait....

Seriously Prof, dont talk down to me. Talk to me, by all means. But dont try and be condescending, i haven't got time to waste.

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Proud to be a Dagger

Woah Woah woah people calm down, i only asked a simple question, i dont need people arguing and falling out.

Ive had my answer, 5 days a week Terrapin pellits and 2 days a week a nice lil treat of dried shrimp, thanks for the help guys!

Well... beliefs are great. Good research always helps. Back this up with some experience... perfect.

I think my suggestion was to feed whole foods in addition to the pellets just to add variety.

I don't know were you get he idea I'm talking down to you. I don't even know you. I'm responding to the post and points in the post. I don't care who I'm talking to.

When the attitude comes out... I'm done.

I've been participating in these chats for almost 10 years now. I thought they were the greatest things in the world as far as communication goes... I now know why the old timers think it is a waste of time... call me stubborn.

To the OP... I think you've got your answer if you muddle through the... BS.

"Feeding excess protein can result in hyperuricemia, in which uric acid is deposited in internal organs; this may lead to primary visceral gout, a debilitating and often fatal condition. Uric acid levels can also be increased by dehydration or renal damage. Hyperuricemia leading to visceral gout from these causes is referred to as secondary visceral gout"

Not my words, the words of the Merck Veterinary Manual (current edition). Maybe you should get in touch with the editors so you can set them straight before they mislead anyone else....

" In cases of chronic renal disease, there will often be nutritional (high protein diets, excess vitamin D3 supplementation) or husbandry factors (low humidity, mild long term water deprivation) that may indicate potential renal compromise"

Not my words either, those of Stephen J. Divers, BSC, MiBiol, BVetMed, MRCVS, Proceedings of the ARAV, October 24-27, Sacramento CA]

"Aetiology of Gout: feeding excessive protein to herbivores"

Again not my words. Those of Charles Innis, D.V.M., Gretchen Kaufman, DVM (Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine).

You will not find one single recognised veterinary reference text that agrees with you on that point, though., Ed. If you do, please provide the reference as I'd like to read it. So far, it has eluded me. Please, don't argue with me about it. Take it up with the above authors.

Andy Highfield
www.tortoisetrust.org

Beliefs are great. No,really. As is good research, especially backed up with facts and sources of facts as you clearly.....have not done. As for the experience comment, keep reaching for your superior rainbow, i dont care to know how long you have kept this or that, so you really dont have a point.

You are right in one thing. You dont know me. You dont know how long i have kept anything. You dont know how much success/failure ive had and what with. You dont know how old i am - in fact you seem to know very little.

The attitude comes out because maybe you rub people up the wrong way. Maybe your comments about experience, and why my belief about high protein diets is wrong - whilst not backing up a single statement you make winds me/others up. If you dont want attitude i suggest you read back what you type before you post.

When you mention old timers. Would these be the same old timers who drilled holes through tortoise shells to tether them? Things move on and people learn new things. You may have ten years on your side, that means little.
Ive never noticed the whole Shelled section being somewhere arguments arise, contrary to what ive read about people seeming to be 'know-it-alls', ive got some great advice in the past months from the likes of Graham - someone who seems able to give great advice without seeming to look down his nose. You though, you emphasise that what i heard is actually quite correct, i do not have time for people like you. You post about old timers and 10 years worth of chat like i actually care. I couldn't actually care less about you. As far as i am concerned this conversation is done, and you are wasting your effort if you make a reply.

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Proud to be a Dagger

Since you are so up on the nutritional requirements of chelonians... you are probably the perfect person to tell us what is the required protein intake of turtles and tortoises and if you know... how was this conclusion derived.

I seem to have missed the part about the vitamin supplementation.

Next question... what type of protein will cause this hyperuricemia and... again... at what point or under what specific conditions does this occur.

You know my mantra... heat and hydration... there's a reason for that. The hydration for the reason you stated and the heat to facilitate the metabolism.

I hope you noticed my suggestion was for varied whole food items... I might not have stated it as such but I suspect the OP understood the point.

You can set me straight in an instant... tell me how much is too much, how much is not enough and how you derived these numbers.

Many of the citings you listed are based on the feeding of dog and cat foods to herbivours. I don't see where the fats and oils are addressed. This is far from the idea that I suggest... if you feed a highly varied and relatively balanced diet... protein should not be a consideration at all...

I'm sorry that my writing is not as eloquent as yours to where I can get my point across clearly.

I guess we've passed the diplomatic mode and have arrived to the attack mode.

I didn't bring us here.

Ed

As the OP's questions have now been answered I see no point in leaving this thread open. This sort of bickering only alienates new members from asking questions in the future and leads nowhere useful to anyone.

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