At no point has the Tortoise Trust told people to 'jump and do as we are told'!

As Tina has said, Jean (not the TT) posted on numerous forums to get the information to as many people as she could - so people could make an imformed decision.

Seems Jean post is, yet again, being used to have a little dig at the TT!

Tamie <yawn>

on a personal level, i treat my tortoises and animals like i treat my my kids (not literally, but when planning care routines etc). i am not the type of person to follow instructions 100% if i have found a methodology that works for me. We are all different and have our own ways of doing things, so what works for one may well not work for another.

Look at smacking kids. I personally will smack my kids if the need arises in a dangerous situation or under extreme circumstances. Other parents will gasp in horror at the simple suggestion. but i am not going to follow governement guidelines when i KNOW my kids and what will and wont work with them. the same with my animals. We all have to improvise our own methods and try new routines out, even against public opinion and backlash, in order to progress our hobby and reach a better ideal of " a good captive environment".

There are some members of the group that will try new techniques to help reduce problems, even knowing that they may encounter set backs and prejudice on the way. its only through making tiny discoveries that we can improve the quality of life of our animals. its good that a group like this can have an adult discussion on the pros and cons of issuses like dried food and symthetic D3 with out the whole section being reduced to a slanging match.

as long as we all follow our own instincts and do what we feel is truly right
for our individual animals, then i none of us can be accused of being a bad keeper, or neglecting our responsibilities. Guidelines are not rules, they are there to help a novice establish a good basic knowledge. there is nothing wrong with establishing your own methods, and i personally have never heard the tortoise trust themselves say that it MUST be done this or that way. again, its a few die hards, but they are becoming less vocal in the face of a few people speaking up.

here here

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Thanks,
Carl

0.0.1 Testudo Hermanni Boettgeri

There does seem to be a sheep mentality among certain organizations where members seem to jump on a band wagon to the point where it is representitive of a mob mentality and not much personal though seems to be placed into the personal responses.

It would seem that any disagreement with certain organizations is going to be seen as a dig.

That's their problem because that is what leads to a splitting of power... which... of course... leads to a weak front of any kind.

If any one organization or it's members think they are the leading authority on a topic there is an obvious perception problem.

I can see having a strong belief but dismissing all other beliefs that do not fall into step with that belief is counterproductive to putting together any 'organization' and that's also not to say that it's demeaning to other tortoise keepers and their point of view for those who choose to follow a different route... imho.


Ed

It's worth noting that I've only noticed recently that the pieces become so sharp, I used to use it and it was soft, but this batch was actually quite sharp. It is getting beyond the point of 'one or two reports' its just that Rolo's is the most shocking. I'm certainly glad it was posted. I just think that there is risks involved in everything, but when tortoises use hemp so extensivley to the point that they are surrounded by it to sleep, the risks are escalated. I'd rather use something that makes me worry a lot less than being frightened of finding an impaled tortoise!

I do think that certain people are using this thread to get at the TT, which is a shame, green really isn't a nice colour

I think most people are making their own mind up- quite a few haven't switched. The TT didnt actually report the issue, it was someone with a tortoise called Rolo that has made everyone think a bit more. I've not heard of one case of soil/sand to cause eye irritation unless it is allowed to get very dusty (which it shouldn't be allowed too)

I think the brains comment is arguable

__________________
Josh
www.tortoise-world.com

I'm going to start looking into protective clothing for my tortoises - maybe some form of body armour

I disagree. I think that if any of us do follow the TT guidelines, we instantly become sheep and its assumed that we are simply following the TT's (or any other turtle/tortoise organisation) guidelines, because they are the TT.
This is not the case, personally, up until I thought about it properly, I disagreed about the hemp situation and carried on using it.

No-one has dismissed anyones argument here, if anyone has it's you. with comments like "**** happens" ect.

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Josh
www.tortoise-world.com

Now comes the personal confrontation...

I don't see anywhere where anyone has attacked the TT or it's teachings.

What I have seen is...

'signature' (yawn)

if anyone has it's you. with comments like "**** happens" ect

Opinions have been expressed and some people seem to get quite defensive if those opinions are different then there own. That defensive mechanism based on whatever insecurity issues seems to quickly degrade into condescending and insulting behavior pretty quickly.

This was an interesting and constructive discussion on a few points before...

Ed

i have never suggested following the TT guidelines makes anybody a sheep. i did and DO still check info on there website. i find it a useful reference point, but the point of researching a subject is not to stop at one source of information. its to find MANY sources of info and then to collate it, and draw your OWN conclusions as to what it means. The key to good research is to draw your conclusion form many, varied sources and back up that conclusion with evidence and knowledge. If we all followed the advice of one organistaion exclusively, then progress would be very slow and head in only one direction.

To be honest, i dont see why people just cant express their views in a calm and civilised manner rather than it turning into a slanging match every time. There are downsides to all substrates, And i dont think anyone is using these examples of fatalities against the TT and I dont think anybody is a "sheep"
so, calm down...

had my rant... carry on

__________________
Thanks,
Carl

0.0.1 Testudo Hermanni Boettgeri