That's always an attention grabber.

I got an email from a friend on the sexing of tortoises/turtles. It wouldn't be anything special except for the size of the animals... but first...

Endoscopic sexing has been used on birds for many years. It is now coming into its own on herps.

This is where you take a fiberoptic scope(you gotta look that one up if you don't know) and enter the body cavity and check out the gonads(sexual organs) of the patient.

This is a male tortoise... he's about 6 inches SCL... the long white mass is the... testis... nuts(sorry... couldn't resist).


Here is the female... the pearl like items are the ova... soon to be eggs... in this case... not too soon.


Here is what prompted me to post this...
This is the post I got and it blew me away...

"we recently did a group of 60 four-month old Cuora (asian box turtles)...the smallest was 12 g and the largest 45g. No problems and no deaths, we divided the group into local anesthetic nerve block (n=30) and general anesthesia (n=30). The anesthetized animals were certainly more comfortable with less struggling!"

Aint science grand?

Ed

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Ed @ not allowed to post a link
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

its fascinating stuff. i was reading a study about the conservation of leather backs and other similar species. this is the method they use for reliable sexing in juvenile spcies, i believe they enter the body cavity between the head and the front leg and then seal it with a tiny stitch to prevent infection. i can see the benefits for conservation but i dont think i want to become THAT well acquainted with any domestic pets!

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The goat made me remember!! all hail the mighty goat

Surely you can do it genetically? Or would that be too pricey?

As far as I am aware the primers have not been developed yet, although it is done in birds. Im pretty interested in doing it however, and it should be relatively simple (i say relatively....), and once tested, would be very cheap. It is possible to do DNA testing using fecal samples, but the best method is blood. Seeing as how the process ED is talking about is invasive, that also shouldn't be a problem.

Time is the major factor I guess... that no-one (as far as I know) has enough to develop the markers.

Andy

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i imagine the gentic testing would be extortionate! its a constant cost too, as opposed to an initial outlay for equipment thats re-used. i have heard of some animals having genetic mapping done to establish how they are related to other species, but i reckon that would need major funding. and it also would take a while. the fibreoptic method is quick and pretty much 100% spot on, the only mistake is human error. And its relatively painless, kind of like us having a biopsy done. still, i dont see it as necessary unless its used for conservation, very rare species and setting up breeding colonies or maybe for research into incubation effects on sex etc.

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The goat made me remember!! all hail the mighty goat

Well the initial costs would be high (ish) just to develop markers but then for each individual the costs would be low. The benefit of these systems is that once the primers are designed and tested, anyone can order primers and do the testing in any lab.

Other positives are that if blood is being taken, other things can be tested. A DNA fingerprint for the individual can be taken, which can be useful for a variety of things, including identification, related-ness etc... Its probably possible to test parasite loads aswell.

One thing I considered is that to a breeder, being able to sell sexed juveniles and hatchlings could be very beneficial.

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It would be great to be able to sex really young tortoises. We could all plan our collections much more easily. For all I know I have a crew of males snoozing upstairs at the moment. Who knows?

The attraction of DNA would be that you could send a sample off and get the results a few days later. No need to take your tortoise off to get probed etc.

i am in two minds about determining sex of hatchlings. as Ed has pointed out on other occasions, the high temperatures we incubate at in the uk is for a female cltuch. thats even with alot the people that claim to be in it for the hobby instead of the money. so would this mean that there wouldbe an excess of males going ofr buttons when females comanded a higher price?

again, i can see the appeal of either technique being used in conservation or species monitoring. as a private breeder i feel its a closer step towards increasing the cost of CB tortoises. this will increase the cost of CB home bred torts, and increase the demand for the farmed tortoises. the price of the farmed torts will drop in direct relation to the price increase of CB. reckon thats a good way to shoot the hobby in the foot.

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The goat made me remember!! all hail the mighty goat

We are more than capable of shooting the hobby in the foot without worrying about sexing what with the import ban campaign, the anti pet shop movement etc.

I actually see it leading to better conditions for torts in general. If Cites/ Defra were to introduce genetic tests on all protected and imported species, and database them you would decrease the number smuggled, remove any controversy when listing a hatchling. It may also have positive connotations for insurance purposes and returning stolen animals....

Just a thought.

Andy

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