I know I'm preaching to the choir here but I also know some of you are cross participants...

I have one kid I would have considered selling and another I would kill to keep... That's not what I'm talking about here...

I was speaking to a friend recently (I do have one or two) and they tell me that they think all of their Leopard tortoises are all female. One of them is 7kg. At that size there is no doubt to the sex. They are not going to breed them. They are in a cold climate and they think it wouldn't be... right.

I thought this was odd but understood considering the circles that they belong to.

These are pets. Does anyone believe by not breeding them they are helping the wild population? I would think the contrary.

The individual might suffer... is that the potential breeders concern?

Here this person has an opportunity to make some extra needed money. Who knows... they might give rise to a new breeder. There's no worry about competition...

Now... I know lots of 'purists' who breed and sell their tortoises. If you are truely worried about the outcome of your products... why breed them at all? Sterilization is a very inexpensive and very safe practice.

This is kind of related to selling to shops... been doing the buying and the selling for at least 35 years.

Why not produce Leopard/Sulcatas... Aldabras in the UK or where ever.

There is supply and demand...

Let's not forget survival of the fittest... man has destroyed many habitats where species have been whiped out... but man has also created habitats which cause other species to not only thrive but increase in their home range.

The point... why should an individual keeper either destroy eggs or not reproduce those animals that are capable of reproducing?

(discussion... anyone?)

Ed

I am currently waiting for my biggest leo to lay eggs. so far she has left two in the shed but shows no signs of laying a clutch. her last fertile clutch was in march. If she does lay, i WILL incubate the eggs, or at least the first clutch or two from each female. It would be a valuable, educational oppurtinuity to take my hobby full cycle and produce babies from the animals i have cared for.

I may make a little cash from selling them too, but not even enough to cover the running costs of my hobby. In this country people dont keep the bigger african torts for long after they realise how big they grow. Hence why all of mine are rehomers, except for one. But I see no harm with breeding any animal as long as responsible homes can be found for any resulting offspring.

I choose NOT to breed my stupendously beautiful (pedigree to die for) rottweiller bitch as there are hundreds, if not thousands of rotties in rescue centres across the country. Nobody wants them so i would be contributing to a problem instead of helping to prevent it.

I don't think a mammal is quite the same thing. There's a little more control and work involved with that.

I'll be willing to bet that more people take up the responsibility than not in keeping a large tortoise...

If they do not... who cares... I have no problem not only selling tortoises but adopting them out. It is very easy to find a home... Just observe the back biting in those groups that 'adopt' only to a select group.

Ed

it IS different with a mammal without a doubt. I have noticed lately thouigh that atleast 3/4 of the animals that pass through my house are given to us as unwanted pets. We then tend to rehome them after they have had any vet treatment and try to pass on as much as possible. We have only kept a few reptiles. a beardy, CWDs, leopard geckos and royals. the others go to new homes as soon as they are fit.

The torts are different. Leos will stay with me as long as i can possibly keep them, they are my babies and i love them. We have taken in a few sulcs in the past too. Meds i am not too fussed about, I will always try to rehome them when possible And as you say for torts, there is NO shortage of people wanting to rehome them.

I geuss alot of people just dont see the point in breeding an animal, for me its a logical step on the hobby ladder. My animals are not just pets, they are my project, my sanity and my stress buster. I derive a huge amount of pleasure from planning, arranging the enclosure and greenhouse and planting the gardens. So breeding, to see the fruits of my effort is simply proof that my animals are happy and healthy enough to breed. I geuss if they laid eggs and i knew they were fertile i would feel pretty terrible about not incubating them. After all the effort they put into laying them it seems a little evil!

I have no problem in anyone breeding there tortosies as long as they are responsible enough not just to pass them on to anyone , a little care in home selection is a good thing I would imagine.

I certainly breed all my tortoises Reds being the biggest producers even though this season has been a poor season for eggs only having 38 laid and so far 36 hatch with one deformed baby who hatched without eyes (doing remarkable well mind ) some individuals will put this low egg number down to my overbreeding and exhausting my females plus deformatiy another sign of poor adult animal health I would say its natural selected resting by my animals two females havent laid at all this season but are remarkable fit and well.
My most successful season was 2005 with 72 red eggs laid and 67 hatched with all babies being rehomed with little trouble if it did take a while they did all still go .

I will admit I did fall into the trap after some abuse(my fault for advertising the fact of how successful I was with reds) of saying I will not hatch many more and discard the eggs in the future, I often wonder why I decided that my thoughts were/are I was new to forums and everyone seemed so knowledgable about tortosie care etc I wanted perhaps to fit in and the way to do that was not to have success or achieve perfect results as it was demmed bad practice and over production again something I hadnt thought about as all my animals seemed fit and healthy but as these so called experts seemed highly thought of( I have now seen them as all amatuer fat mouths by the way)I thought it best to go off there advise as I had little contact before joining forums with other chelonia breeders well successful ones that is, anyway I didnt do as I was told or advised and carried on regardless and still do and will produce my baby tortoises in what number I choose and yes sell them on to prospective new comers experineced or not I will advise were I feel its necessary .

As for petshops supplying well so far I have never found the need to pass on baby tortoises to any petshop establishment I dont find it difficult to rehome myself, and even though I have been approached by a few shops I wasnt happy with the low price they offered or the accomadtion the tortoises would live in whislt waiting sale.

I would be happy if I had surplus that I knew I couldnt sell on sell to the right pet trader as long as I was happy with there price and there accomadation ,caresheets etc.

I do find it difficult on the forums though these days as they are ruled by certain people only willing to have snide comments in there posts which to most will seem quite unoffensive but I know what they are getting at I didnt go by the golden rule so once outcast they work together to dicredit your name as best they can and yes it does work on occassion but I will carry on regardless, I say breed no matter what speices just be responsible owners/breeders .

D

This forum is different now but I don't know about the others

Whoa Darren... you don't beat about the bush do you?


As to the OP's question... I've spoken to a few keepers of (rehomed) leopards who won't breed them as they feel the environmental conditions in this country aren't right for them. Whilst respecting their decisions the flip side to me is that there is demand for the larger torts so it can only be a good thing, as long as supply doesn't outstrip demand, for there to be more UK CB one's available.

I plan to breed one day (well not personally, been there, done that and have no desire to go back ) but as mine are only 1 and 2 years old I'll either have to be patient or buy some adults. I don't ever plan on keeping any of the larger species, I like the littlies, but if I did I would probably breed them as long as I knew, for sure, there was demand from good homes. If I knew, for sure, there wouldn't be then no I probably wouldn't incubate their eggs.

__________________

Then there are the forums who ban you outright... OR... who are Buffloed into banning members... That's the one that really gets me...

I have trouble understanding how a list owner can be forced into a corner with their own list.

I remember how when I joined this list there were a few members who threatened to quit or not participate on this list as long as I was a member... The list owner saw no reason to ban me on the point of a difference of opinion. The list owner held fast. That's a person to respect.

Another point is that we can have civil disagreements without it breaking down to an out and out flame war... at least on most sections of this forum.

It's not only the Tortoise people... it's people who come off as fanatical control freeks. Keep in mind... the more control you give them the more they believe their own stuff and... of course... the more control they have.

I'll say it time and again... this section of this forum is special for the people who are willing to and are allowed to participate.

Ed

Yeah we ran em outa town did'nt we?

I myself don't breed & really don't want the hastle of it for the time being. I lead a moderately hectic life (work, young family etc). I plan to breed when my current group hit maturity (in about 6 to 8 yrs). I've read the posts about disgarding eggs and quite frankly I think they are downright weird. If you don't want to breed the surely you should make efforts to prevent your females laying fertile eggs? I'm pretty certain I'd be able to find good homes for any babies I produced. It's funny that 'they' say that people should never buy from petshops but at the same time refuse to incubate viable eggs - I just don't get it.

What efforts to prevent your females laying fertile eggs George ? I have three Leopards all of which I was told were female - one now definately male - I dont want to breed nor do I want to seperate him from the girls.