Cheaper - shouldn't really be a consideration, if you are getting an animal, money shouldn't be a deciding factor. If you can't afford it, don't get it!!

Humidity - If this is true, how can Uromastyx which require less humidity than tortoises be kept in a viv. Humidity can be controlled just as easily in a viv, if not easier as the constant air flow over a table will naturally produce humidity unless your whole house is bone dry.

Glass - A tortoise has to be able to reach and see glass to be 'stressed' by it. Most vivs have wooden strips to hold the glass runners that would prevent them seeing out. It doesn't take a qualified carpenter to make these bigger if necessary.

Ventilation - a viv can be as well vented as anything else, doors can be removed, larger vents put in correct positioning is not difficult.

Temperature - Temperature gradients can be produced very accurately in a viv provided it is big enough and you know what you are doing.

I have asked in this section at least twice now why another reptile requiring the same conditions can be kept in a viv where a tortoise can not and as far as I am aware I have yet to receive a substantially convincing answer. Because of this I still see tortoise tables to a large extent as a platform for people who want to be seen to know more to preach from I'm afraid.

I am sure that the shelled section double act will try to disprove all these points, but as yet I haven't seen anything that successfully does this as in this section shouting and bullying for long enough usually seems to drive people asking awkward questions away

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Do not walk behind me, for I may not lead.
Do not walk ahead of me, for I may not follow.
Do not walk beside me either, just f*** off and leave me alone.

i would stick riot gear on if i was you froggy youve got missile's coming your way

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Well i never looked at it that way frogeye. A very good explanation!

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Yer you can make a viv suitable for a tortoise by removing all those things but then whats the point in buying one.

Because those modifications are not always necessary. I was just taking each point in turn and showing that it can be done just as well either way.

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Do not walk behind me, for I may not lead.
Do not walk ahead of me, for I may not follow.
Do not walk beside me either, just f*** off and leave me alone.

I'll go get my bike kit on, that has body armour in it

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Do not walk behind me, for I may not lead.
Do not walk ahead of me, for I may not follow.
Do not walk beside me either, just f*** off and leave me alone.

The only way a viv would be OK would be to...Take the top off and have a high wooden strip.

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No because the whole point is they are necessary as tortoises easily get respiratory problems and so need to be well ventilated, so you can have a tortoise in a viv providing all those changes are made. But if your going out to buy houseing for your tortoise you would buy a tale. If you mistakenly bought one in a viv then you can then adapt it.

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that is a great way try arguing with that lol