Oh for god's sake Ed, I will leave this forum just for you ... I can't stand seeing you turn another forum into the 'Ed show'.

So go for it, advocate the use of vivs, pellets, mixing species, hibernating non hibernating species and MBD is purely a cosmetic issue ..

In terms of tortoise keeping you stand for nearly everything I do not.

Your personal political agenda in terms of the TT and Andy is pathetic, so Andy talked about kleinmanni (sp?) at a conference and he and others corrected you on the info you tried to spout - get over it. He and others had taken the time to study them in their natural environment and knew more than you .. get over it.

Tamie

I'm addressing some misinformation. I don't think I'm the one who needs to get over anything.

I have no problem being corrected as long as I can verify the correction and the information is good.

I don't see anyone turning this into the 'Ed show' but those who are so insecure about their methods that they have to distract the topic in another direction as they have done so many times before and not only to me.

Can we try and stay on point... You say vivs are bad... I say they are acceptable options for tortoise keeping... some will agree with you... some will agree with me.

thats basically a table..

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That's exactly the point.

Keepers have been using vivs with underside heating for over a hundred and twenty five years (that's the earliest reference I have) and we still do.

For those who use a table... that's another option. The same consideration as when using a viv should be taken into account when using a table.

If the viv has no top or glass then theres no problems IMO. Because its just like a table.

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the most common and easiest CHEAPEST way to house a small leopard in winter is to get a big plastic underbed box ( about £12) and put a few inches of organic playsand/ soil mix in the bottom. mist the with substrate lightly with water everyday to allow for microclimates. have a normal everyday house hold bulb suspended over one end or EVEN BETTER get a mercury uvb bulb like the powersun100w. This satisfies all your leos lighting requirments and while expensive will last a year or so if on for 12 hours a day. Suspend it so the basking temp is suitable for the species and then put a few hides and rocks around for interest. feed you animal off a slate to prevent gut impactions from digested soil etc and to trim the beak.

Personally i only use a viv if my animal is on antibiotics as the level of toxic build up from urates/waste can get very high very quick due to poor ventilation. Tortoises bask for heat so better absorb heat from above, again i would only use a thermostat controlled heatmat when my animal is ill. A leo should not need overnight heat if kept in a centrally heated house as long as the ambient temp doesnt go below 16-18c ( which most dont!). the desert environment can get quite cold in their native habitat and they will thrive better with a night time drop in temps.

ASK FOR A REFUND ON THE VIV, or better still turn it into a mini greenhouse for when the animal is outside in the warmer days. there are plenty of reliable sources such as british chelonia group, tortoise trust and slowcoach and many chat rooms to get advice. THE PET SHOP DOESNT KNOW BETTER! goodluck and hope you sort it all out

VIVS are very expensive to buy, so why bother, i went to b&q yesterday and bought their good old shelving, sheet of plywood(bottom base) screws and plastic corner fixing brackets, all this cost me £38 and out of that its going to make a 6x2ft table, how much would a 6x2ft viv cost?

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Linz

Tams please don't feel you have to leave this forum we're going to need genuinly knowledgeable keepers who put the welfare of torts first in the coming months i sense.

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This is why i like Tams so much.....Pure Passion

Thanks a lot EJ and TAMS, very useful info, cheers