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Old 26-02-2008, 05:51 PM
jms jms is offline
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Originally Posted by -EJ View Post
When I say behavioral... a particular tortoise will make particular choices. I'll be at the computer later this evening working on photos and I'll post some here which I believe supports my point. I have a group of tortoises which are as flawless as I can expect... except for one. They are all kept together and are offered the same foods but this one guy is pyramided and the only factor (outside of genetics) I can see is the guys behavior. He is the only one that is consistantly out in the cold where the others stay on the heat mat when it is cold.

The other thing is the selection of foods... some tortoises prefer certain foods and can sometimes be overly selective. I've observed this also in the wild with a few different tortoises.
Whilst agreeing that some Tortoises seem genetically predisposed to pyramiding, I too noticing that one of my Tortoises on an identical diet to the others does show some slight pyramiding, I also believe that diet can be responsible in many instances.
The cause not necessarily being the amount of protein given, but getting the correct balance between protein intake, vitamin D and calcium.
I believe that if you are feeding a higher protein food then this should be balanced with extra high doses of calcium and enough vitamin D to allow the animal to metabolise this extra calcium.
Personally, if I am just feeding the standard weed diet, then my Tortoises will accept a light dusting of calcium, however should I feel the need to feed something with a higher protein content, such as bamboo shoots, for instance, I have found that they will eat them even if dampened and completely saturated with calcium.
I'm not suggesting that the Tortoise is compensating for the amount of protein, just that because the high protein foods are more obviously tastier they will accept large amounts of calcium.
My point, therefore, is if you balance the other essential components of their diet then higher protein foods should not necessarily cause pyramiding.
This is only my view but it makes sense to me, although I could be completely off the mark.
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Old 26-02-2008, 06:54 PM
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There are so many variables (depending on who/what you read) involved that guessing 'what causes pyramiding? it seems like picking a lottery winner! And probably as pointless (excuse the pun).

My terrapin suffered up to 9 years of 'neglect' before I rescued him and exhibits some slight pyramiding towards the front of the carapace. He was basically kept in a fish bowl all that time!

I think as he is only about 7in he has also been stunted. I could not sex him when I got him - he was covered in green/brown gunge & only after 3-4 months did he he develop male characteristics (nails & tail). I also understand that it is common for captive turtles to be less smooth than their wild cousins.

I would like to see some further info/study of the patterns that occur as i think the growth rates (up & down over time) of the subject concerned may also play a part and this is not just down to protein or heat/hunmidity alone. It must be about habitat/diet & exercise plus the breeding/genetics/type. one thing for sure i have had to be very careful not to overfeed and cause a growth spurt or over excercise him for the last 12 months.
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0.0.2 Leopard-Spotted Catfish (Synodontis eupterus) -5/6 yrs old

0.0.1 Red Tailed Shark (Epalzeorhynchus bicolor) - 7 yrs old

2.1.0 Moggies - various ages

"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be measured
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Old 26-02-2008, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by gtm View Post
Do Egyptian Tortoises get pyramiding (think about it!!!!)?
Oh my god, I was thinking about that for ages. Then it clicked.

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Old 26-02-2008, 07:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Topbell View Post
There are so many variables (depending on who/what you read) involved that guessing 'what causes pyramiding? it seems like picking a lottery winner! And probably as pointless (excuse the pun).

My terrapin suffered up to 9 years of 'neglect' before I rescued him and exhibits some slight pyramiding towards the front of the carapace. He was basicall kept in a fish bowl all that time!

I think as he is only about 7in he has also been stunted. I could no sex him when I got him - he was covered in green gunge & only after 3-4 months did he ee to develop male characteristics (nails & tail). I also understand that it is common for captive turtles to be less smooth than their wild cousins.

I would like to see some further info/study of the patterns that occur as i think the growth rates (up & down over time) of the subject concerned may also play a part and this is not just down to protein or heat/hunmidity alone. It must be about habitat/diet & exercise plus the breeding/genetics/type. one thing for sure i have had to be very careful not to overfeed and cause a growth spurt or over excercise him.
I have good evidence to suggest that rate has no bearing on shape.

You are right that there is no one factor that is the cause but I have no doubt that heat is the primary factor and the rest of the list follows.

I once posted a nice example of the growth rate in my leopards but the list owner thought it was a frivolous post and buried it in the show off photo section... really pissed me off.(personal problem... sorry) I'll put it back together and post it here to demonstrate my point.
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Old 26-02-2008, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by -EJ View Post
I have good evidence to suggest that rate has no bearing on shape.
Yes - i dont mean shape = growth rate but I do think rate of growth coupled with the other variables - especially diet - when immature - must be a cause. In humans (bad example I know) the skeleton is softer when younger and I thought it was common knowledge that a bad diet leads to poorer bone growth (ie. ricketts).

Take a look at 'Woody's latest pic. He was a lot worse (more bumpy) a year ago but you can still see the 'crease' as I call it and the raised scutes over both shoulders. i thought this may be because he needed to rapidly develop his front legs upper torso for swimming. (he shedded all his scutes in about 3 weeks after I got him). Hopefully over time this will get less obvious. Luckily he does not seem to too affected by his bad upbringing.

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I care for:

1.0.0 Red Eared Slider (Trachemys scripta elegans)- 10/11 yrs old

0.0.2 Leopard-Spotted Catfish (Synodontis eupterus) -5/6 yrs old

0.0.1 Red Tailed Shark (Epalzeorhynchus bicolor) - 7 yrs old

2.1.0 Moggies - various ages

"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be measured
by the way in which its animals are treated."
- Mahatma Ghandi

Last edited by Topbell; 26-02-2008 at 07:33 PM.. Reason: add piccy
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 26-02-2008, 07:36 PM
-EJ -EJ is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Topbell View Post
Yes - i dont mean shape = growth rate but I do think rate of growth coupled with the other variables - especially diet - when immature - must be a cause. In humans (bad example I know) the skeleton is softer when younger and I thought it was common knowledge that a bad diet leads to poorer bone growth (ie. ricketts).

Take a look at 'Woody's latest pic. He was a lot worse (more bumpy) a year ago but you can still see the 'crease' as I call it and the raised scutes over both shoulders. i thought this may be because he needed to rapidly develop his front legs upper torso for swimming. (he shedded all his scutes in about 3 weeks after I got him). Hopefully over time this will get less obvious. Luckily he does not seem to too affected by his bad upbringing.
My first response... it's not a cause but a result.
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Old 26-02-2008, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by -EJ View Post
My first response... it's not a cause but a result.
That depends on the individual animal and it's experience. They surely have to develop at the 'right' rate. Too slow or too fast is less likely to happen in the wild or maybe they die earlier so we never see the 'result'?

Growth is a 'result' of all the causes?
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I care for:

1.0.0 Red Eared Slider (Trachemys scripta elegans)- 10/11 yrs old

0.0.2 Leopard-Spotted Catfish (Synodontis eupterus) -5/6 yrs old

0.0.1 Red Tailed Shark (Epalzeorhynchus bicolor) - 7 yrs old

2.1.0 Moggies - various ages

"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be measured
by the way in which its animals are treated."
- Mahatma Ghandi
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 26-02-2008, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Topbell View Post
That depends on the individual animal and it's experience. They surely have to develop at the 'right' rate. Too slow or too fast is less likely to happen in the wild or maybe they die earlier so we never see the 'result'?

Growth is a 'result' of all the causes?
Are you baiting me???? Only kidding. I couldn't ask for a better response.

What is the 'right rate'? That is definately a human concept.

Chelonians in the colder part of their range develope at a slower rate than those of the same species in the warmer part of their range.

What's more is that chelonians develope faster during warmer and wetter seasons as evident by irregular growth ring patterns.

Growth rate is a direct function of metabolic rate which is not predetermined (for the most part) in reptiles. It is determined by environmental conditions... which... are not consistant. They vary by geographic location and they vary season to season (more so now than ever)(in our lifetime)
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Old 26-02-2008, 08:06 PM
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In simple terms - so you can understand (bad joke) - I think I 'm saying time & age is another variable to consider & a very important one too.

Before you know it we'll all have alarm clocks going beside the heat & lights.
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I care for:

1.0.0 Red Eared Slider (Trachemys scripta elegans)- 10/11 yrs old

0.0.2 Leopard-Spotted Catfish (Synodontis eupterus) -5/6 yrs old

0.0.1 Red Tailed Shark (Epalzeorhynchus bicolor) - 7 yrs old

2.1.0 Moggies - various ages

"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be measured
by the way in which its animals are treated."
- Mahatma Ghandi
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Old 26-02-2008, 08:23 PM
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I would be very interested to see pics and information about pyramiding in wild tortoises.
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