Do i REALLY need a thermostat? - Page 13

sasandjo · #**121** (**permalink**) 21-01-2009, 06:29 PM

was just asking as without a stat my mats would easily push past that

jo

Morgoth · #**122** (**permalink**) 21-01-2009, 06:31 PM

Guess you need lower wattage mats if you want to run them without thermostats

Jake89 · #**123** (**permalink**) 21-01-2009, 06:33 PM

I have some stats up for sale at the moment:

Exo Terra compact bulb,Thermostats (Microclimate & Habistat)Arcadia fittings & MORE!!

sasandjo · #**124** (**permalink**) 21-01-2009, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morgoth

Guess you need lower wattage mats if you want to run them without thermostats

there all 23w heat strips in racks and i wouldnt dream of running any heat source with out a stat.....ps.got plenty of stats

Ssthisto · #**125** (**permalink**) 21-01-2009, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morgoth

If your truthful, then thats a terrible heatmat.

Quote:

It was a 6" X 11" Habistat 7-watt heat mat, brand new from the shop and a fellow member of RFUK got it from a shop as part of a starter kit for a (mislabelled-as-a-Cali) Florida Kingsnake. The snake owner queried why his snake was hiding under the water bowl on the cool end all the time, so I went to visit with my infrared TN1 spot testing thermometer.

The cool end was 80 degrees - rather warmer than it should have been.
The middle of the faunarium was 88 degrees, ideal for a very warm basking spot.
The hot end on top of the chippings was 135 degrees.
The hot end beneath the chippings, but inside the faunarium, was 140 degrees.
The mat itself measured between 140 and 145 degrees.

No wonder the poor little snakelet was on the cool side under his water dish.

Quote:

Heatmat at bottom of viv, newspaper taped over it to the floor, 1"-1.5" layer of chippings on top - 95f direct heat maximum, it will greatly decrease a further 2" higher again.

The instructions on the heat mats I have state that a *maximum* of 1 centimetre of substrate be placed over the heat mat due to the risk of thermal blocking and overheating.

They simply don't have the wattage to generate 135/140f indirectly, even an inch away from the surface. They simply are not designed for it.

But your snake isn't an inch in the air above the surface, it's ON the surface, or ON the surface that's being heated by the mat.

A little tiny seven-watt mat absolutely did generate the same amount of surface heat as my household radiator does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morgoth

I've just measured the temp in my boa viv, they have a 4' heat mat on the floor with a few layers of newspaper taped over it. It was 94f direct, 2 inches high it was 84f. And thats with a big heatmat, let alone the little ones.

Can I ask what tools you use to measure your temperatures, and where exactly you're measuring them?

Morgoth · #**126** (**permalink**) 21-01-2009, 08:10 PM

I have an external thermometer with hand held probe. I have a digital Hygrometer in the same fasion.

When I measure temps I measure the basking point, off-basking point (if the basking point is on a shelf), the hgihest shelf in the viv, and the cool spot. All are spot on, and always have been, and I've never used a stat.

Heatmats I've always had newspaper on, and in the case with smaller snakes and lizards, a substrate as well. Even if, which they don't, a heatmat could reach a surface temperature of 140f with paper on top, that is still nowhere near enough to burn or discomfort the snake, it would simply mean they spend shorter times in the basking spot. Try and remember that if left permantly in the sun temps would soon reach above 130f in many hotter places of the world. Reptiles know what temperature they want to be, and they won't come to harm providing they have a cooler spot, or can come into contact with burning temperatures. They have built-in thermostats, they don't need to be molly-coddled.

Ssthisto · #**127** (**permalink**) 21-01-2009, 08:28 PM

Morgoth, I grew up in a desert and I know about high heat basking areas. Funnily enough, from about 11AM to about 4PM in Albuquerque and the surrounding mountains, all the lizards and snakes were hiding in the shade where it was substantially cooler. Ground temps might have been quite high in places (especially considering air temperatures of 110 at times) ... but the animals were behaviourally regulating their temperatures by basking early in the morning and later in the evening when it cools down rapidly.

The problem is that long term exposure to temperatures over 90 degrees fahrenheit will brain-damage many temperate species like corn snakes - and 140 degrees sure is hot enough to burn. I did a little experiment putting my hand on my 140-degree radiator and it was all I could do to KEEP my hand on there for five seconds - it stung like a sonofagun. HEAT is much more dangerous to a reptile in the short term than cold is.

The problem is, if you give a snake a choice between "too cold to digest" and "hot enough to burn" with nothing in between (a heat mat setup with no bulb and no thermostat) the snake cannot thermoregulate properly at all.

As far as "not believing that heat mats get that hot" ... did you miss the photographs at the beginning of the thread?

Would you like me to take some photos of an infrared thermometer measuring these temperatures in spots in an empty vivarium, with paper, with paper and substrate and so on?

Morgoth · #**128** (**permalink**) 21-01-2009, 10:47 PM

As I said in my inital post, its my experience that heatmats are certainly not hot enough to burn, even without newspaper between them and the snake, let alone with substrate on top. Obviously I have to take you at your word when you say you received 135f temperatures from a single heatmat over which was newspaper and substrate - I personally don't believe it, but I won't start a crusade about it.

And neither did I recommend a cage with just a heatmat, on the contrary I said they need both, you say they need just the bulb (which is also true).

And where did I say the basking point needs to be far too hot, and the cool end far too cold? A corn snake would be fine with a cool end of 80f, and a basking point of 90f, in the middle of the viv it will be around 85f. In my experience these temperatures are easily maintained without the use of a thermostat.

sasandjo · #**129** (**permalink**) 21-01-2009, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morgoth

As I said in my inital post, its my experience that heatmats are certainly not hot enough to burn, even without newspaper between them and the snake, let alone with substrate on top. Obviously I have to take you at your word when you say you received 135f temperatures from a single heatmat over which was newspaper and substrate - I personally don't believe it, but I won't start a crusade about it.

.

"Heat Mats". What can happen when you don't bother reading the Manufacturers advise

certainly got hot enough to damage this poor creature no !!!..
dont get me wrong there was no other heat source so he hugged it but still shows how hot a mat can get

jo

Morgoth · #**130** (**permalink**) 22-01-2009, 12:49 AM

All I can say is a heatmat of mine has never, could never, and will never omit that much heat

I can keep my hand directly on there without any pain or discomfort, so I don't see why my snakes would get hurt with a few sheets of newspaper in between as well (which mellow it enough to just feel a nice warmth coming through). I can only assume that the heatmats are either a cheap make or faulty.

Either that or my reptiles have been living on borrowed time for the past several years.

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