i think to be honest we should just agree to disagree cos ur not going to change ur mind and nor i am i, but there is nothing wrong with that, that is the point of a forum, an exchange of opinions anyway and discussions. and not everyone has to agree do they, so thats fair enuf

but on a final point i do agree with morgoth that the fact that snakes were successfully kept in the past without stats does indeed show that yes we prob should use them and they are a great step forward, but yes not necessarily essential. even if we are the only two on the forum that seem to think so,

on just the temp point though, i checked the surface of my royals floor, and it was most definitely around 30 oC, no lie. and the heat mat is under plastic vinyl floor tiles, with my corns I have the heat mat at the back of their faunariums, on the outside obviously, and not underneath, they are against a wall you see on a shelf, so they dnt get too hot, and there's is a similar temp reading. and no i used a proper thermometer, not a cheap dial one.

I don't understand why people would take the risk. Yes they may be ok for years, but it only has to be faulty/overheat once. Couldn't stand being the cause of a snake cooking so I won't risk it.

__________________

Faulty heatmats do not produce heat, or produce decreased amounts of heat. They start to go grey in places and eventually barely produce any heat at all.

Overheating is not possible. That would involve exceeding its maximum capacity and for that it would need a powersurge. If that occured the fuse would blow the appliance to stop it working.

The only overheating possible is from the method stated above to do with large snakes spending prolonged periods of time on them.

__________________
(Robin of Sherwood and Herne the Hunter)
"The target is too far, my aim is lost!"

"Then aim again."

"To what purpose? To what end?"

"There is no end, nor beginning. It is enough to aim."

and surely there is the same risk of a stat becoming or being faulty and the same fing would happen anyway

Have you read the first post in this thread?

__________________

Heres a quick reminder
Do i REALLY need a thermostat?

__________________

Pewters, Cinnys & Pastels available soon, Plus 1 Silver bullet

Just edited some typos.

__________________
(Robin of Sherwood and Herne the Hunter)
"The target is too far, my aim is lost!"

"Then aim again."

"To what purpose? To what end?"

"There is no end, nor beginning. It is enough to aim."

I take it you missed Onissarle's point about vinyl, which emits toxic gases when heated.... granted, depending on how long your setup's been running, all the toxic compounds may have been released already.

So a corn snake, which is a temperate species and needs a basking temperature of approximately 86 degrees (30 degrees celsius) is being heated the same as a royal python, which is a savannah species and requires a basking temperature of 90-92 degrees (32-33 degrees celsius).

One of those temperatures is not correct for the snake in the enclosure if they're both reading 30 degrees celsius.

Ever tried using an infrared spot thermometer? You can usually pick up a TN1 quite cheaply - and it gives you instant temperature readings on anything it's pointed at. Your hand; your refrigerator, the food in your refrigerator, your snake's ceramic heating element, the skin of your snake itself... I love mine. Best reptile-keeping "toy" we ever bought. Lets me check the exact temperatures of where my snakes spend their time, instantly, without needing to wait for a digital thermometer's probe to get up to temperature.

So you wouldn't define "a heat mat, which is being used for a snake that requires a basking area of 85 degrees, reaching 109 degrees when not regulated by a thermostat" as overheating?

You wouldn't define "a heat mat, which is being used underneath a faunarium and without thermostatic regulation, melting the bottom of the faunarium" as overheating?

I think we're using the word "overheating" rather differently to how you use it, Morgoth.

Granted, I agree that a heat mat plugged straight into the wall will not produce heat exceeding its capabilities without a power surge.

What we are trying to express is that the average heat mat's capabilities and standard heat output do in fact exceed safe temperatures for the reptiles using them and that therefore, unless you are willing to risk the gamble of "I've got a heat mat that doesn't exceed the temperature I want" and you're there all the time to maintain it... a thermostat for a heat mat is a necessary piece of equipment.

And on the point of "people kept reptiles before there were thermostats"...

People also kept reptiles before there were UVB bulbs designed for reptiles. And that's where the myth that they don't live longer than a year or so in captivity (spouted by all sorts of groups including the RSPCA!) came from... because the animals were not being maintained to their requirements, let alone the best of human capability. Sure, you can keep a bearded dragon alive using a regular bulb.... for a while, although you'll have a pretty misshapen dwarfed little thing when he dies a couple years later (but what the hell, the kids got tired of it anyway). But if you've got the appropriate UVB, not only will he live, he'll THRIVE. He'll breed. He'll show natural behaviours. All because of a technological advance that fulfilled a need for an environmental requirement.

Heck, research into iguana diet showed that the iguana meat-farm diet people were feeding them (high on animal proteins to get them to grow big, FAST for slaughter) was what was killing them of kidney failure... so pet iguanas are now fed totally differently to the farmed ones, and pet iguanas have a much longer expected lifespan.

If we all kept reptiles the way we did when I was a kid (and I was very lucky that most of mine were wild-caught and could be released at the point of capture) they sure wouldn't live longer than a year.

I had a collared lizard that wouldn't eat - because he had no UVB lighting and a cage that did not provide a proper thermal gradient. He lived - my dad let me keep "Charlie Joe" for a month or two, then took him back to the lake where he had been captured.
I had a pair of (male!) Anolis lizards who lived in the same small enclosure, small lamp for heating (as advised by pet shop - thermal gradient? What's that?), no UVB. They lived for six months or so, but who knew that was abnormal? They were wild caught adults, after all...
I had a garter snake that was (now that I know the difference) not heated effectively at all, and probably could not digest the food provided (and given she was eating feeder goldfish, that won't have helped either). Torah died after I'd had her a year or so. It took me fifteen years to trust myself keeping a snake again.

Most of my reptile "pets" as a child lived in the back garden - the fence lizards, the earless lizards, the side-blotched lizards, the tiger salamander, the bullsnake...

Should I keep my animals now like I kept them then, just because other people keep their animals alive for relatively short time periods doing the same things?

Or should I continue to keep them to the best of my ability with the equipment that will best ensure that they are kept at the optimum temperatures, light levels and environmental conditions?

Morgoth, I noticed your list of animals-you've-kept, and I see a sort of theme going. The majority of animals you list require moderately high to VERY high temperatures for reptiles; you don't list any really temperate species other than the Taiwanese beauty (and depending on the subspecies, possibly the king - the skinks again depending on species since that's sort of like saying "I keep hooved mammals"). Most of the species you list specifically are also fairly hardy and able to cope with temperature fluctuations well. It might well be that your methods work so well with your animals simply because you've got animals that are bloody hard to kill with temperature fluctuations as long as the temperature does not exceed a certain critical point.

How exactly did you keep the Taiwanese beauty, out of curiosity?

__________________
- Ssthisto

"My bum has been a bum for a very long time, but that doesn't mean I have to listen to what it says."
- Terry Pratchett, Fifth Elephant
Lizards: 2.1 E. macularius2.4 H. caudicinctus1.0 R. ciliatus0.0.2 T. gigas0.1 T. scincoides0.1 T. merianae0.1 Tupinambis hybrid1.0 V. niloticus0.0.3 V. acanthurus Colubrids: 14.12 P. guttattus1.0 P. o. rossalini1.0 P. o. lindheimeri1.1 P. slowinskii2.0 C. radiatus0.1 Lamprophis sp1.0 L. g. nigritus0.1 L. alterna1.0 H. n. nasicus1.0 P. m. melanoleucus2.1 T. s. infernalis Boids: 1.1 E. c. maurus 0.1 E. conicus8.14 P. regius1.0 A. dumerilli
Member 1603 | Buyer Beware ....