Venemoids - Page 13

Andy · #**121** (**permalink**) 14-11-2007, 11:01 PM

I know its quite long but if you read the whole thread there are some posts that state people have experiences of working with venemoids and they have the same digestion (as far as they can tell) as normal hots.

kasandrich · #**122** (**permalink**) 15-11-2007, 12:47 AM

Venomous snakes devenommed or defanged now theres a thought, what about constrictors being de-muscled so theres no risk of them constricting us?

No its wrong

leptophis · #**123** (**permalink**) 15-11-2007, 01:01 AM

Personally I dont agree wqith venomoids in any way shape or form, I understand the training argument, but the bottom line for me is you are altering a snake to keep it. ALthough I dont have stats i have several friends who have kept them and all have found they died prematurely with the exception of a venomoid elapid, and for no apparent reason. I am sure there are people who have kept them alive but that isnt my experience, Interestingly the people who have had these deaths, kept venomoids vipers.

HABU · #**124** (**permalink**) 15-11-2007, 07:05 AM

i personally feel it's mutilation but i'm guilty of getting my dobie's ears done so here i don't have a leg to stand on. i am a liberal, so i don't like pushing my preferences onto others. i'm very much against pickles...those nasty green things. i will not eat them...but if anyone else does, i do not have a problem with it. it's none of my concern. i find pickles very offensive but i feel that you have the right to indulge in them if you so desire...i doubt that snakes suffer at all from being modified this way if it's done properly. i just think that it takes away from the creature. kinda like an M-16 with the firing pin removed...it still looks pretty but you've taken the essence of what it is away. now if you want to throw all of your firing pins away...that's up to you. for me, it just seems a shame but i won't protest about it......throw them pins away and enjoy those pickles...no harm done.

royalpython · #**125** (**permalink**) 15-11-2007, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by masticophis

So gathering from this you don't believe that the surgery should be done at all mainly because it also gets the backyard butchers to do hack jobs ?

If so then I take it you don't agree with any medical help for humans either as that would be 'proper' sugery just like venomoids but would encourage people to cut others up for the fun of it.

Wether people agree or disagree with the surgery is one thing and its a personal opinion. However most of the arguments about this is using either inaccurate or outdated information with no regard for the possible plus sides.

We tell you about a 20 year old cobra with no venom and half of you say that venomoids will die very soon ? So that is ignoring some facts. Yes some snakes will die, mainly from hack jobs, but then again the backyard butchers should never be allowed to practice anyway.

As had already been said keeping snakes is unnatural anyway, so you can't use that as an excuse, yes you have to draw the line somewhere, but please lets base it on some intelligence and facts.

Also what about most of the morphs that lots of people keep, as I remember some of the early morphs didn't have the lifespans or good health of the normal cousins. Bloodred corns for a start plus most albinos. So by half the peoples standards no one should have ever bred them as there was an impact on the health on the animals.

All I'd like to see on here is some proper reasons why there shouldn't be venomoids, not hashed up old information or inaccurate facts or just plain crap. If you just don't agree then thats fine but please if you want to say why it shouldn't be done then a good reason please.

Yes they shouldn't be done in large numbers and easily available to numpties as while the venomoid itself is harmless, the keeping of it isn't the same as a corn plus they will breed and produce fully armed babies. But in the right hands I can see more good points than bad for the keepers and the animals.

Mike

There's a difference here Mike. Anything we do to ourselves is our choice, and anything humans do to animals is not. The snakes have absolutely no say in people removing their venom glands, so if you don't draw the line there, then where do you draw it? What else needs to be removed? Reproductive organs, so keepers don't breed and reproduce venomous snakes (for example)? I'm not one with facts or figures, but from the sounds of things, it has taken a number (dont know how many) of snakes to die until they found the correct surgery. So, were these sacrificial snakes for hobbiests? I'll "assume" they were healthy before surgery?

Morphs are naturally occuring, removing venom glands isn't. Fair enough you get your designer morphs that are unlikely to happen in the wild, but, there's nothing stopping them from breeding in the wild.. it would still be a natural occurence. I don't know anything about Corns, so anything mentioned about them is above me. If some died? Then i'll assume this happened because nobody put a knife to it's throat and removed organs from it's body?

I've heard the cobra story, that's starting to sound like a broken record. Can you start another story about something else, rattle snake perhaps? Don't worry, i won't go researching it, because it makes no difference to me.

Dan · #**126** (**permalink**) 15-11-2007, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by royalpython

I've heard the cobra story, that's starting to sound like a broken record. Can you start another story about something else, rattle snake perhaps? Don't worry, i won't go researching it, because it makes no difference to me.

Love it!
In that case there's a 900yr old, 10ft pygmy rattler that had the surgery done by one of Mikes ancestors and it's still alive today, so there.

I'm going to guess that if corns are no good as a reference then boas wont be either.
The form of albino boa that is prone to producing deformed babies (ie missing eyes) would be a good substitute if boas are better for you.

royalpython · #**127** (**permalink**) 15-11-2007, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reticulatus

Love it!
In that case there's a 900yr old, 10ft pygmy rattler that had the surgery done by one of Mikes ancestors and it's still alive today, so there.

I'm going to guess that if corns are no good as a reference then boas wont be either.
The form of albino boa that is prone to producing deformed babies (ie missing eyes) would be a good substitute if boas are better for you.

cheers dude, something different

Now i'm convinced, and the entire venomoid community has my support

If this is a naturally occuring thing in boas, and humans are not removing the eyes, then human intervention hasn't taken place.. this is the way i see it - humans will have selectively bred the boa for albinism, and because of this we have no choice but to accept what is produced, i don't see how bringing a knife and physically removing glands from a healthy animal has much to do with it... but I don't know enough about the story to really form any conclusion. Humans can be born blind, deaf, abnormal etc...

Dan · #**128** (**permalink**) 15-11-2007, 10:48 AM

I'm going to end up arguing the case for not breeding that strain of albino if i'm not carefull!!

Rsmith4040 · #**129** (**permalink**) 15-11-2007, 11:07 AM

Just because people on forums haven't proved that venom aids in snake digestion, doesn't mean it isn't true. And to everyone who said they haven't found a scientific study or any research showing that venom has any function in digestion, you obviously didn't bother looking. And just because people who have kept a few venemoids haven't noticed a difference in digestion, so what? How would they have any idea what they are talking about? Visual clues aren't always given to the stresses an animal is under. And people who breed snakes are more often than not just enthusiasts. They don't study their animals with any reliablility, they just produce 'informed opinions' to support their own actions. What a load of $#1^!

If any of you are biologists (like me) and have access to sciencedirect, wiley interscience or any other online journal database you can read MANY good papers about the digestive function of snake venom. It has been proved many times over and for many different species of venomous snake.

One of the best, and earliest, is this one...
The effect of rattlesnake venom on the digestion of prey. (Thomas & Pough, 1979)
ScienceDirect - Toxicon : The effect of rattlesnake venom on digestion of prey

Also see....

The Myonecrotic Effect of Duvernoy's Gland Secretion of the Snake Thamnophis elegans vagrans (Jansen, 1987)
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0022-1511(198703)21%3A1%3C81%3ATMEODG%3E2.0.CO%3B2-B

Venom Function in the Puerto Rican Racer, Alsophis portoricensis (Serpentes: Colubridae) (Rodriguez-Robles and Thomas, 1992)
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=004...OR-enlargePage

There is also a rather good study demonstrating that venom may be an evolutionary product of digestive enzymes.....
Venom Toxins: Plausible Evolution from Digestive Enzymes (Kochvar et al., 1983).
Venom Toxins: Plausible Evolution from Digestive Enzymes -- KOCHVA et al. 23 (2): 427 -- American Zoologist

To me, removing a snake's natural defence, prey immobilisation and a primary method to speed digestion is castration and is cruel. You are disabling your snake. The beauty of keeping animals for me is to appreciate the wonderful variety and complexity of life. Standardising your animals is just pointless and constitutes and insult to them and their wonder. If you want to keep animals, keep the ones which you can manage. Don't just modify the ones you want to make them easier to look after, they arent toys.

Just my opinion anyway.

royalpython · #**130** (**permalink**) 15-11-2007, 11:19 AM

i'm sure i've seen it on documentries that snake venom in some species can aid the digestion. Is this not also proven for spiders?

Reticulatus, if they continually bred this line of albinism, then of course it's not really the nicest of things to do.

View Poll Results: Is devenomation acceptable?
I think it's OK	28	10.81%
I think it's wrong	193	74.52%
Undecided	38	14.67%
Voters: 259. You may not vote on this poll

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode