Thats a good point, I completely forgot about fish.

I think all pets should be defined and protected against abuse. It might even discourage people from rushing into buying animals they are not sure they can keep successfully - after all, it is not the animals fault if they are left with an inept keeper, yet they pay the price.

By defining the limits of pets and "prey" perhaps we could eliminate at least some of the sources of animal suffering.

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Brachypelma albopilosum (Charlotte)
B. Schroederi (slings)
Grammostola sp. "North" Northern gold
G. aurerostriata (slings)
Cyclosternum fasciatum (slings)

Member of the BAS and AAS.

That is about to change soon though, most likely. In Switzerland recently they changed the law:

from
Swiss legislation to affect aquarium hobby | Practical Fishkeeping magazine

I can see this only as a good thing. For the same reasons I would have thought inverts being put onto the AWA would be a good thing.

But, of course, if feeder animals were put on, we'd all be screwed, and I dont know how one could differentiate between feeder inverts and pet inverts? And, if we cant, should we?

I guess we need to decide whether being killed by a Tarantula is a humane enough way for a cricket to die, or whether we should all be CO2-ing them

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And Ashmashmash, you are spot on.

Is it acceptable for a Tarantula to be the executioner alone - for this is what is being viewed now by the opposition - that a cricket/locust and mealworm do in fact suffer as much pain and extreme terror as the fish you have quoted above do, or the chicks l make mention to previous post.

But it comes down to this - where does that leave the market of reptile keepers - if they change the legislation?

Definition is indeed needed, but at what cost?

I am not for cruelty in any way shape or form, but of recent times, with reading all the levels of legislation around, and of course trying to read into the oppositions mind and their legislation, they are winning the day in the battle against all forms of cruelty, clearly visible and the not so visible.

R

But of course it does leave this open ....... in the wild, a Tarantula is the natural predator to its prey - where will this all end?

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Well, as you say, definition of these things is clearly needed.

But, I am open minded on this I think. We disagree with feeding tarantula's live to other things, yes? But, we agree that feeding crickets live is ok. Do crickets feel less than tarantulas? I would have thought them both being simple inverts that its about the same?

Is it really that horrific to think maybe we should start buying the crickets frozen in bulk like we do with mice?



Thats no bad thing surely?

This is an argument for allowing the feeding of crickets to tarantulas? Then the same can be said for mice and snakes?

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You raise extremely valid points AMM, and l agree with you tbh.

But l am not a reptile/invert keeper except by default of Nerys's collection, so l will have differing viewpoints to reptile/invert keepers anyway.

Is it a bad thing to buy them in frozen, personally, l say no, what others may feel, l don't know.

I think in all honesty that is a sure fire way of them being kept under AWA legislation, the other way is for private keepers to dedicate sufficient space for them, water, feed etc, in their own residencies, and the retailer could not do this l feel, and there is no way that sufficient space could be classed with the cricket tub.

Is it a bad thing about the opposition, in many ways no, but until it affects you directly AMM and your collection even you may have differing viewpoints eh?

And of course from mice to snakes, well this has been a heated debate article for some time anyway hasn't it?

R

ps: The not so visible agression from the opposition would be the call for all reptiles to be banned from private hands, would this be something that reptile keepers would tolerate even if it meant that was a complete ceasefire from abuse and cruelty from the offenders?

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Also this line:

"This is an argument for allowing the feeding of crickets to tarantulas? Then the same can be said for mice and snakes?"

No this thread was about placing the Tarantula into/onto the AWA legislation, it has digressed into the feeding of the cricket to the Tarantula and other aspects.

R

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Why exactly would it be disasterous to include a group of animals that are frequently harassed or killed for the purposes of entertainment to an act that promises prosecution for such acts?

E.g:

BugFights

You think this is acceptable? Even filming livefood consumption gets my back up, there is no respect. A documentary at least treats the subject with respect, these lack that, and it makes all the difference. Just type tarantula into youtube, and you'll see the rampant disrespect that owners have - "tarantula vs scorpion" etc.

Any hassle we have in the hobby is at our own actions.

I say rather than working up into a frenzy about what might happen, support this act to protect our loved pets and help to implement harsh penalties for people seen in violation of such laws [I'd personally like to catch those bugfight morons and see how they like being the underdog].

Fact is, cruelty occurs a lot in invertebrates, not helped by suchs veiws that "they dont feel pain" etc, which acts almost as a justification. That, and people buying them almost as a social badge - "hey, im cool, I have a scary tarantula". IMO, it would do us all a lot of good if we supported such attempts to add PET inverts to the AWA and concentrate on getting people to keep inverts for the right reasons.

On the flipside, any arguement against live food use has a counter arguement, especially in the case of arachnids: They do not eat carrion. End of story, there is no way around it, unless you happen to keep Opilionids that sometimes eat fresh carrion, or a prepared to syringe cricket mush directly into the mouth of your pet T - stressing it out rather a lot.

__________________
Brachypelma albopilosum (Charlotte)
B. Schroederi (slings)
Grammostola sp. "North" Northern gold
G. aurerostriata (slings)
Cyclosternum fasciatum (slings)

Member of the BAS and AAS.