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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 09-11-2012, 10:12 PM
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I haven't seen this mentioned yet, but lots of species can carry hidden hets. So, although it may appear that you're buying a new male that has the same traits as the father, you may end up with something completely different or non-viable offspring. Also, with leopard geckos at least, there are different types of albinos - breeding two different albinos 'muddies' the gene pool and many breeders pride themselves on good, clean genetics.

I think (or at least hope) that people call it a day with inbreeding when they start producing weak, low fitness animals or start producing non-viable eggs/neonates.

Inbreeding can be a very useful tool by increasing population resistance to certain diseases as well as bringing species back from extinction (black footed ferrets) - it has to be managed though and done responsibly.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 10-11-2012, 12:19 PM
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Inbreed doesn't cause problems that are not already present in the animals genotype. Ethical, well thought out and planned inbreeding is quite literally harmless regardless of how vulgar the concept seems to us as sentient creatures.
Think about this for just a moment... Savu island python (to name just one example) come from a very closed location. The entire population resides on an island that if I recall is a hundred odd square miles. They are an enormously inbreed species when compared to some others. It's not like mummy savuensis will turn to her son and say "sorry dear, we're very closely related and I find the thought of shagging you repugnant., I'll just wait for some new blood to turn up..." She'd have a bloody long wait...!

Locality differences within species are a result of localised inbreeding. This is why there is such diversity of phenotype present in things like retics and corn snakes that have a wide natural range. These animals are not built to travel huge distances to breed so they will (and are 'designed' to) breed with who ever is closest. The day that snakes become migratory is the day I'll take back that opinion...

I also think that cautious inbreeding is essential at least every now and again. Say I breed some imaginary corn snakes with compatible hets. I get my double het babies and breed them together and get a load of youngsters with defects... Yup, horrible stuff but no, the inbreeding didn't cause the defects, it has just allowed me to discover that my breeding line has some form of recessive genetic cock up and that I should no longer breed either the original parent animals or the babies if I care about not passing this hidden recessive nasty on to other breeders.

The issues seen in some breeds of dog are caused by thoughtless (or knowledge-less?) inbreeding. Whilst it can be used as a means of fixing good things into your bloodlines, it can also fix bad things too.
I have an enormously inbred line of multimammate mice that throw massive litters, grow fast and don't bite. This is the result of careful and considered inbreeding.

We as reptile keepers are by and large, utterly crap at keeping track of bloodlines. We don't pass on much in the way of genetic back ground info to buyers of our babies and no one keeps... well, I hesitate to say 'pedigrees' but you get what I'm on about!

Saying "Eeeew, that's munting! We should never force them to marry their offspring" is anthropomorphism in the extreme. Frankly, the snakes don't give a flying fish-stick and you could even argue that they have evolved to be able to contend with being inbred.
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Last edited by Twiglet; 10-11-2012 at 12:23 PM..
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 12-11-2012, 09:04 AM
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Thanks for all your explanations, I know it may not have really seemed it the way I posed the question, but it wasn't the actual mating bit I have a problem with I was just trying to establish if genetically it was really the best idea! I know in the wild inbreeding is especially common, particulary in remote areas, and notable in wolf packs, in these cases they are having to introduce new animals because the inbreeding is producing too many unviable litters with high mortality. So the gist is...

1) Only way to guarentee any hets in the animals
2) Space
3) Cost
4) Convenience
5) Can prove het problems in animals so you know not to breed from that individual again.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 12-11-2012, 11:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kirstyhorsman View Post
Thanks for all your explanations, I know it may not have really seemed it the way I posed the question, but it wasn't the actual mating bit I have a problem with I was just trying to establish if genetically it was really the best idea! I know in the wild inbreeding is especially common, particulary in remote areas, and notable in wolf packs, in these cases they are having to introduce new animals because the inbreeding is producing too many unviable litters with high mortality. So the gist is...

1) Only way to guarentee any hets in the animals
2) Space
3) Cost
4) Convenience
5) Can prove het problems in animals so you know not to breed from that individual again.
I don't see that 2) 3) or 4) are at all relevant in why people breed back to the father. Most people who are doing a project that involve that have plenty of space, plenty of snakes to swap and there is no additional convenience that I can see. The reason people breed back to the father is about genetics pure and simple.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 18-11-2012, 08:02 AM
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I think the case is stronger when someone finds a new morph, as in the Witblits patternless bearded dragon(only new morph ive heard of recently)
Morphs like this come out in maybe a couple of offspring you then have no choice but to inbreed to prove it out and thus produce more of the same morph!!
That stops as soon as two visuals are producing 100% of the morph desired!
You can then start breeding out to other stock then other breeders can start the whole inbreeding again
This is just what I understand from a new morph found in a beardie and this whole process can take a long time so more of a passion or labour of love.
Chris
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 19-11-2012, 08:40 AM
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Thanks Chris, I think that too, can understand it for the first time ever, but not when there are so many of that type already!
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 19-11-2012, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kirstyhorsman View Post
Thanks Chris, I think that too, can understand it for the first time ever, but not when there are so many of that type already!
I think when your talking about snakes the rare morphs can be really costly or difficult to find so people end up with het examples to produce the morph themselves!!
Chris
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 21-11-2012, 09:08 PM
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Inbreeding is a difficult topic for humans, human siblings that produce offspring are more likely to carry recessive genetic disorders. We however have a huge gen pool, and millions of recessive diseases. The offspring therefore might be genetically less fit. The reptiles that we are breeding however are different because, inbreeding is seen more often in the wild. Therefore selection pressures have already reduced the likely hood that hidden genetic defects are present. In captivity any responsible breeder takes out animals showing genetic defects. Therefore with careful breeding it is possible to create a really healthy but small gen pool.

Hope that helps
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 21-11-2012, 09:54 PM
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Inbreeding is used to strengthen a particular trait, as in more red in albinos, or enhancing a stripe pattern.

When selectively bred offspring are used that is, so the best pair (hold backs) from a litter are bred, and then one offspring is bred back to a parent (to prove hets) or to a litter mate showing the best example of the desired trait your trying to improve.

And so on and so on, each generation is called a filial or 'F' generation. so 1st gen is an 'F1' and so on when you get to F6 then the pair will breed true, this means they will make exact copies of the parents.

It's has been done with fish, dogs and birds.

If you come across a defect, one generation of out crossing will remedy the problem.

This process does have a big need to be selective in what you breed, you need to have the best animals available to you and it is a big bonus to know the genetic history..
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 23-11-2012, 08:51 AM
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Woo Hoo I think I get it!

It was mostly the genetic problems that I had an issue with, but think my head has just about got around that now

Thanks to everyone
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