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Known and potential genetic defects in morphs!

85K views 66 replies 28 participants last post by  Barnezy 
#1 ·
After alot of recent discussion in the snake section i have decided to start a thread where people can list any known or possible genetic defects caused or associated with certain genes or potential pairings.
This is not a thread for debate over the rights and wrongs of such breedings but as information to help people with potential breeding pairings and/or purchasing a new snake.
If or when a solution to a problematic pairing occurs (i.e a super jungle produces a viable litter) feel free to add a link with supporting evidence and any additional information.
Cheers Stu
 
#2 ·
Ill go first with the ones i am aware of

Boa Constrictor Imperator;

Super Motley.
The Super motley is produced from a motley to motley pairing. Super motleys can be either Colombian or C.A.
So far there is no confirmed evidence either have survived long enough to produce a viable litter.The C.A Super Motleys seem to be stronger than the Colombian versions which to my knowledge have all either died before sexual maturity or are in the process of health deterioration to the point death seems likely.
The cause is thought to be underdeveloped muscles leading to a weak snake. At the moment it doesnt look as if any amount of outcrossing will help resolve the issues.


Super Jungle.
Super Jungles appear to be unable to reproduce,although more are now survivng into adulthood i have seen no reliable evidence of viable litters being produced.

Breeding Albino to Albino.

As far as im aware this is relevant to both Kahl and Sharp strains of Albino.
Not always but pairings of visual to visual albino has lead to litters of boas with deformities, particularly around the eyes.
The overiding consensus among boa breeders would be to breed none related visual to a het to increase the chances of producing healthy offspring.


Royal Pythons.

Spider Royal.

The spider gene is a co dominant mutation. It has been said that all royals carrying the spider gene will suffer from neurological issues described as "head wobble". This can very from being hardly noticeable to servere corkscrewing and starglazing. How much this effects the snakes quality of life is open to dispute, spiders are also said to be strong feeders and breeders.
I believe the super form of the spider gene to be lethal,no living Superspider has been produced.
 
#25 ·
hey !

Spider Royal.

The spider gene is a co dominant mutation. It has been said that all royals carrying the spider gene will suffer from neurological issues described as "head wobble". This can very from being hardly noticeable to servere corkscrewing and starglazing. How much this effects the snakes quality of life is open to dispute, spiders are also said to be strong feeders and breeders.
I believe the super form of the spider gene to be lethal,no living Superspider has been produced.
hey sorry just to fix it the spider is a dominant gene and no superform exists hence i is a dominant.

Just to let you guys know
 
#3 ·
Great Idea, Stu.

I'm gonna sticky this and keep an eye on it, I'll remove any arguementative or disruptive posts. Info and evidence only please!
 
#4 ·
royals

pearl - AKA super woma = fatal
add another gene to the mix, ie: lesser - and everything appears to be ok

caramel albino - certain lines carry a much higher percentage of kinked individuals than other lines
 
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#9 ·
pearl - AKA super woma = fatal
add another gene to the mix, ie: lesser - and everything appears to be ok
Keep in mind that Pearl is homozygous HGWoma, not homozygous Woma - the homozygous form of the Woma gene (which is not the same as HGWoma) does not look visually distinctive from a Woma and is not lethal, as per BHB.
 
#5 ·
Extreme hypo honduran milk snakes
This morph seems to carry a leathal gene and enlarged heart issues.
I've actually tried to grow on 3 of these and all 3 passed around 6 months, and carried the same defect.
All were unrealted and UK, US And European lines.

Caramel corns and striped corns

Enlarged heart and sudden death,wittnessed in both morphs, weakness and prone to sudden weight loss.
 
#6 ·
ooh I didn't know that about caramel and striped corns!

One to add for leos, I assume this sticky relates to both snakes and lizards?

Enigmas -
Enigma syndrome is only found in enigma leopard geckos. Symptoms range from star gazing, circling, head shaking, head tilt, difficulty with co-ordination including hunting for food and at its most severe, death rolling. Most leos with enigma syndrome can be managed with a little extra TLC, however if a leo is death rolling the kindest thing is to euthanise. Enigma syndrome can be present from birth or develop at a later date. Enigmas showing this syndrome should NOT be bred from. It is also advised not to pair 2 enigmas when breeding even if the parents do not display enigma syndrome.
 
#7 ·
Good thread mate. I'll do more posts in here in time. For now...

Albino boas. The albino is a weak gene in that one eyed albinos can result from unrelated het x het breeding, albino x het breeding and worst of all albino x albino. No matter how much outcrossing has been done it doesn't have seemed to fix the problem. One eyed albinos can come from any pairing.

Super Aztec Boas: both Patternless Super Aztecs born in 2008(one died within a few month's from improper force feeding) from two different female Aztecs had or have the same problem as the Super Aztecs which can best be described as a lack of coordination. Several Super Aztecs including the remaining Patternless Super Aztec have seen improved coordination with age and a 2007 male Super Aztec produced a viable litter this year. Andrew Potts.
 
#10 ·
#11 ·
Not heard about the caramel/stripe corn thing. However :

Stargazing in corns - recessive genetic neurological condition, principly associated with the Sunkissed morph or Okeetee lines. However due to outcrossing before the inheritance was proved, it COULD occur in any morph.
 
#13 ·
Carpets that contain the co-dom 'jaguar' mutation have been cropping up with neuro issues similar to spider royals (though by all accounts not as severe in most cases and some report no such issues in their snakes). Again, like the spiders, it appears more pronouced at feeding time.


The super form of the jag is known as an ivory, but so far none have survived out of the egg more than a few days.
 
#14 ·
why is is that if you have an enigma leopard gecko with some mild issues, ie, only circles when stressed/disturbed that you cant breed it when its older, and if the Spider royal python has some problems you can, i think its stupid how people judge enigmas,

with enigmas they either show issues or dont, the underlying issues will always be there.

bradd
 
#15 ·
why is is that if you have an enigma leopard gecko with some mild issues, ie, only circles when stressed/disturbed that you cant breed it when its older, and if the Spider royal python has some problems you can, i think its stupid how people judge enigmas,

with enigmas they either show issues or dont, the underlying issues will always be there.

bradd
It's not that you 'can' or 'can't'....it's that some people do and some people don't. It all depends on your moral and ethical 'lines-in-the-sand'.

I'm guessing that the enigma leo breeders lines tend to be slightly different to the spider royal breeders lines? - Still, a discussion for another thread so I don't get shouted at for taking the thread off-topic or turning it into a debate!:Na_Na_Na_Na:
 
#16 ·
Hold on, hold on! The genetic defects in Super Motleys will be 'just fine' in 'time' according to BoaRepulic. Phew, glad that ones sorted out then! Fingers crossed for the Super Jungle boa.
 
#23 ·
spider gene is a dominant gene so cant have a super form and like someone said previouly would be a waste of a breeding as you would only come out with spiders.
You do know that a dominant trait can still be homozygous OR heterozygous, right?

NERD will undoubtedly have done a lot of testing with their first male when they got him up to breeding size to find out if there was a visually distinctive homozygous form of the gene... so why hasn't one been proven homozygous yet?
 
#29 ·
You will probably tell from my next question that i am new to this!!
But am i right in saying that if you breed Bumble Bee x Bumble Bee, the 'Super Spider' will die in the egg? Or will it just not be produced as there is no such thing proven?
I am just trying to understand the genetics thing so please be gentle!!:blush:
 
#30 ·
The problem here is that nobody fully understands the genetics. I certainly do not, and from the posts in this thread, the previous posters do not understand it better than I do. And as far as I know, nobody has tried to work out the answer.

Breeding a spider (or spider combination) to another spider (or spider combination) should produce a snake with a pair of spider mutant genes (AKA super spider) sooner or later. But nobody has reported such a snake. So why has a super spider not been reported?

The two most likely reasons are
1. The super spider dies in the egg.
2. The super spider looks like a spider but has not been reported for various reasons like no interest, no internet access, the snake was never bred, etc.

Solving the problem would require mating two spiders to make possible super spiders and then mating at least 20 of them to normals. If all of the possible super spiders prove to be spiders, then most likely the super spiders die in the egg. But this would require a lot of time and effort.
 
#35 ·
I'm aware of certain "problems/diferences" in certain royals
Such as :

Albino - eye probs
Spider - neuro issues
cinny - smaller heads (apparrently)
Caramels - kink


any more ??????
 
#36 ·
I'm aware of certain "problems/diferences" in certain royals
Such as :

Albino - eye probs
Spider - neuro issues
cinny - smaller heads (apparrently)
Caramels - kink


any more ??????
When you were linked to this thread from the one you posted below, the idea was that you read this thread as it has all the answers on it, rather than posting the question again at the end of it.

Have a read through all four pages and then ask any specific questions or concerns you have:2thumb:
 
#41 ·
it's mentioned more in america than the uk from what i've seen on the net,from what i've seen in pics certain lines of super blacks have short head's with a really wide snout which is where the name comes from,i just wondered if it occurs in blacks much in the uk? google it and ul c wot i mean
 
#42 ·
is there any documented evidence regarding lavender corns being prone to kinks?
i have a kinked lavender and when trying to research it i've not found anything suggesting that that particular morph is more likely to be kinky than any other morph
 
#43 ·
Rich Zuchowski (the founder of Serpenco, and the originator of the Lavender morph) mentioned on his forum that he found this to be the case.
 
#45 ·
Brill thread and love the way things like this always turn into a debate lol but anyway thought I would throw out a few youtube links for some so called 'lethal ball python combos' as I found it really interesting and on the spider 'super' arguement another way which I was told about was the spider was a co.dominant morph and its 'super' turned out to be just simply dominant and now the co.dominant form is nearly bred out. Not saying this is fact or anything just something I was told and thought I would see peoples opinion also
 
#47 ·
This makes zero sense genetically. The sentence 'the spider was a co.dominant morph and its 'super' turned out to be just simply dominant and now the co.dominant form is nearly bred out' is complete and utter nonsense from a genetics point of view.

Either you haven't quite understood the terms codominant and dominant, or the guy that provided you with this argument has no idea what they are talking about.

Could you explain further what you mean?
 
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