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Old 18-11-2020, 02:02 PM
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Default Cites management 2020 time for a reset?

Having made contact with UK authorities involved in the UK's administration of Cites, in relation to future EU reptile imports got to ask if it is time for changes and an update to how it works. Rather than the regulation of trade in endangered species the way Cites is now applied its seems the main mission is to stop all trade. Fact is that in the 45 years since Cites went operational a large captive breeding network has developed. As part of this, and take Royals as an example, hundreds of breeder created colour varied morphs are now in existence. Given that many of these morphs are detrimental to camouflage they have no presence in the wild environment. So seems a bit of a fallacy to label what does not exist in the wild as an endangered animal. Not only that we now have plenty of hybrid specimens that have no species category.
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Old 18-11-2020, 11:58 PM
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I can understand the direction form where you are coming from, but irrespective of the colouration or patterning, a royal python is still a royal python. Trying to administer the importing / exporting of, let's say "domestic" variety because they were bred in captivity and look so different to the natural wild relatives would be impossible, and could lead to opening a can of worms and loopholes. For example, does breeding the odd Cites I snake in captivity make it any less endangered, or protected than one in the wild. You could then see many unscrupulous importers / exporters claiming the snake was captive bred / farmed and thus is exempt and needs less paperwork than if it was found in the wild, which would probably prevent the movement.
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Old 19-11-2020, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Malc View Post
I can understand the direction form where you are coming from, but irrespective of the colouration or patterning, a royal python is still a royal python. Trying to administer the importing / exporting of, let's say "domestic" variety because they were bred in captivity and look so different to the natural wild relatives would be impossible, and could lead to opening a can of worms and loopholes. For example, does breeding the odd Cites I snake in captivity make it any less endangered, or protected than one in the wild. You could then see many unscrupulous importers / exporters claiming the snake was captive bred / farmed and thus is exempt and needs less paperwork than if it was found in the wild, which would probably prevent the movement.
Probably time the UK Cites office got rid of their paper shufflers and got some employees in, with actual experience and knowledge of animals, so that they can separate what is wild from multi generational captive bred.
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Old 19-11-2020, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by harry python View Post
Probably time the UK Cites office got rid of their paper shufflers and got some employees in, with actual experience and knowledge of animals, so that they can separate what is wild from multi generational captive bred.
But again, how could anyone prove the difference. There are still wild snakes being found with unusual patterns or colouration on the traditional base format of "normal" royals. Plus what about all the normals bred in captivity that are het for this that and the other... how would you prove that they are long term captive and not a captive farmed animal.... Granted it would be fairly obvious that something like a visual pastel enchi clown would more probably be captive bred and not wild caught, but then as I stated before, a royal python is still a royal python. You would have to somehow have defining lists of "exempt" morphs that are likely to be captive bred, and those that should be listed, but how could you separate and administer an ever increasing morph list, and then how would they deal with all the morphs that look like normals (flame for example) to the administrators. Which also brings up the question of how this would be policed or checked.

I agree that there are lots of things like CITES that could do with looking at and revisions may indeed be needed, but unless any changes can be made without impacting financially in order to administer those changes, I doubt that anything will happen.
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Old 19-11-2020, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by harry python View Post
Having made contact with UK authorities involved in the UK's administration of Cites, in relation to future EU reptile imports got to ask if it is time for changes and an update to how it works. Rather than the regulation of trade in endangered species the way Cites is now applied its seems the main mission is to stop all trade. Fact is that in the 45 years since Cites went operational a large captive breeding network has developed. As part of this, and take Royals as an example, hundreds of breeder created colour varied morphs are now in existence. Given that many of these morphs are detrimental to camouflage they have no presence in the wild environment. So seems a bit of a fallacy to label what does not exist in the wild as an endangered animal. Not only that we now have plenty of hybrid specimens that have no species category.
There are a number of points to raise here.
First, your reference to contacting UK authorities. There are only two. The Management Authority (APHA) and the Scientific Authority (JNCC for animals, Kew for plants).
Secondly, CITES is absolutely not there to stop all trade, but to ensure that trade is sustainable. In the case of CB animals, the trade would be allowed.
Third, hybrids are already covered. Where hybrids involving parent species of different Appendices are concerned, the hybrid takes the Appendix of the parent with the higher Appendix. So an App I x App II animal would be treated as if it was App I itself.
As for CB animals, well, im not sure why you have an issue.
CITES is not a conservation tool.
It is a trade convention.
The UK is one of 177 countries that are members of CITES. We cannot pick and choose how the Convention is applied.
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Last edited by ian14; 19-11-2020 at 09:02 PM..
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Old 20-11-2020, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Malc View Post
But again, how could anyone prove the difference. There are still wild snakes being found with unusual patterns or colouration on the traditional base format of "normal" royals. Plus what about all the normals bred in captivity that are het for this that and the other... how would you prove that they are long term captive and not a captive farmed animal.... Granted it would be fairly obvious that something like a visual pastel enchi clown would more probably be captive bred and not wild caught, but then as I stated before, a royal python is still a royal python. You would have to somehow have defining lists of "exempt" morphs that are likely to be captive bred, and those that should be listed, but how could you separate and administer an ever increasing morph list, and then how would they deal with all the morphs that look like normals (flame for example) to the administrators. Which also brings up the question of how this would be policed or checked.

I agree that there are lots of things like CITES that could do with looking at and revisions may indeed be needed, but unless any changes can be made without impacting financially in order to administer those changes, I doubt that anything will happen.
So an absolute no to the question in the title of the thread?
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Old 20-11-2020, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by harry python View Post
So an absolute no to the question in the title of the thread?
Can't see it happening for the reasons stated in the posts above.
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Old 20-11-2020, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Malc View Post
Can't see it happening for the reasons stated in the posts above.
First thing I would like to see change is a rocket up the rear end of the UK Cites office in Bristol and the instruction to start providing a satisfactory and rapid service to the people who are paying their wages.
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Old 21-11-2020, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by harry python View Post
First thing I would like to see change is a rocket up the rear end of the UK Cites office in Bristol and the instruction to start providing a satisfactory and rapid service to the people who are paying their wages.
Its quite clear you don't understand the processes with CITES species.
It is an international convention. Every member country must have domestic legislation to bring the convention into domestic law. So it is for that reason that we cannot decide to change bits of it. Either a species is controlled or it isn't.
Every proposed import has to be approved by the Scientific Authority, who must give a Non Dertriment Finding to allow it to take place. Then the Management Authority issue the permits.
The time taken to process both of these will clearly depend on how many proposed trades have been applied for at any one time.
Those used to importing CITES species from outside the EU know this takes time, so factor this in. Now that imports from the EU also need permits means that this will be a longer delay. It means an end to impulse purchasing and planning ahead instead. Which frankly is no bad thing. Especially when there are plenty of royal breeders in the UK.
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Old 21-11-2020, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by ian14 View Post
Its quite clear you don't understand the processes with CITES species.
It is an international convention. Every member country must have domestic legislation to bring the convention into domestic law. So it is for that reason that we cannot decide to change bits of it. Either a species is controlled or it isn't.
Every proposed import has to be approved by the Scientific Authority, who must give a Non Dertriment Finding to allow it to take place. Then the Management Authority issue the permits.
The time taken to process both of these will clearly depend on how many proposed trades have been applied for at any one time.
Those used to importing CITES species from outside the EU know this takes time, so factor this in. Now that imports from the EU also need permits means that this will be a longer delay. It means an end to impulse purchasing and planning ahead instead. Which frankly is no bad thing. Especially when there are plenty of royal breeders in the UK.
The issue I am raising is for the transfer of ownership for article 10 certificates already in the country and any other subsequent offspring. As to import/export I have learnt that it can take up to 5 months to obtain a a export permit for a UK based captive offspring with the permit then being useless because it contains spelling mistakes. Obviously the scientific authority is not as clued up as they need to be.
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