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Supplementing a leopard gecko diet?

2K views 9 replies 7 participants last post by  GlasgowGecko 
#1 ·
I have been doing more research lately in the care of leopard geckos and intend on breeding next season and therefore I want to ensure my geckos diet and feeding is spot on. In doing more research and watching youtube videos I realised many people supplement a leos diet differently, now I'm completely unsure as to whats best!

I have never had any issues with their diet and feed all 3 on mealworms and occasional waxies. They have a dish of calcium in the vivarium at all times and I also dust the worms with calcium, calcium+D3 and multivitamins (this is all done separately).

Now reading Ron Trempers book it seems he combines the 3 supplements and leaves it in a dish in the vivarium at all times. He doesn't seem to dust any food.

Then I was watching davidsfinegeckos on youtube who does not use pure calcium but rather uses calcium with D3 and multivits.

My college's animal unit only ever used multivitamins dusted on food for the leopard geckos.


So what does everyone on here think is the best way to supplement a leopard gecko diet for adult, juvenile and baby geckos? Also what brands of vitamins do you recommend?
 
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#2 ·
Personally I think a source of calcium (no D3 or other vits) should be kept in the viv at all times for all ages (particularly growing youngsters and breeding females). If D3 is included there is a risk of D3 toxicity. They are great at self-supplementing themselves and it is much easier and safer than us guessing. Requirements are different for different life stages, sexes, reproductive status' etc so there is no one answer.

In regards to D3 the best method would be a UV light but for most breeders they aren't able to provide this. Everyone has their own methods and which works for some individuals may not work for others. Personally I leave a calci-dish in the viv at all times, live food gets very lightly dusted at each feed (I'm referring here to adults that are fed 1/2 times a week usually). I would wait for breeders to answer the hatchling part but I suspect most of them supplement every/most feeds too. In regards to multivits; I like Repashy Ca+.
 
#3 ·
Pure calcium in the viv and repashy calcium plus for dusting all live food. It has D3 in as well as other vits/minerals where as the calcium on its own is just that...calcium.
Repashy is he best on the market and after using it for so long...and comparing with other people the effects of it...we have found not only dos it brighten leo's colours but they seem to have better appetites, more energy etc. If you are planning to breed then it is essential to have your leo's in top form and carrying a decent top weight to carry them through breeding season, so repashy is a great supplement to dust with.
It's also important not to give too many things with D3 in as this can lead to an overdose of it...having 2 clear and separate things (one with,one without D3) to supplement with means you get the balance right.
 
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#7 ·
That's the right stuff but it'll be free delivery on Lilly exotics. Not sure of the price Vs quantity though
 
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#8 ·
Calcium simply isn't metabolised without a suitable source of vitamin D3. This means that if you do not provide source of UVb, then having an available pot of calcium (without added D3) in the viv is pointless, even if you provide a multivitamin every other day, the animal simply will not be getting the appropriate amount of D3 to metabolise the volume of calcium it needs. ALL calcium supplied, must be accompanied with an appropriate vit. D3 source, be that an appropriate bulb, or a calcium & D3 supplement.

The argument of toxicity is moot. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that oral D3 supplements alone (without UVb) are inefficient at increasing levels of D3 metabolites in the blood (meaning that a UVb source is the only reasonable way to achieve this - but this is not the point here), and are pretty much unable to increase them to dangerous levels, regardless of how much they eat. This means that the assumption that giving a D3 source as part of the multivitamin regime twice a week (which seems common), is likely massively under-supplementing, which probably explains why people see their animals (or evidence of it) consuming calcium powder in large volumes, as they are simply not able to metabolise it.

Of course a regime which doesn't include all required components daily is, in my opinion, horribly flawed, but people will certainly tell you that "it has worked for them for X years...", but there you go.

Andy
 
#9 ·
excellent points!

we have to de-construct everything and always refer to nature, that is my belief.

This topic is very fresh in my memory as I'm putting the final touches to a new book on reptile food sources. Writing this really did expose me to things that I have never considered before.

My problem with supplements as every body knows is that NO ONE knows how much we should make available per species and per gram of body weight. NO one knows how much is too much and how much is not enough. It really is "crystal ball" territory.

I do believe wholeheartedly that it is possible and actually quite common for animals to be over provided the "synthetics". This is made worse by the fact that an over supply of assimilated Ca that is Ca that has been over supplied with synthetic D3 manifests in largely the same way as MBD :-( so in some cases and usually those that are treated "at home" the levels of powder are increased further to fight what looks like depletion whereas in reality it probably is not. This is the reason that I always insist that MBD is not diagnosed by a picture on a forum but by a vet and only after Bloods and X-ray are taken. It really is the only way to be sure.

Now we know that Ca is one of the most common elements on the earth. In fact a wild animal would have to work hard to not ingest it! Ca is found of course in the food sources in both animal and plant. It is found in the soil and this is ingested as they chase about after live foods or tear up plants. It is found in rain and natural water courses so is ingested in a certain quantity as the animal drinks. Ca is every where. I had to come to the conclusion that in effect wild reptiles are "self supplementing" as part of everyday life!

Then they rely upon a massive dietary variety to make up the rest of the dietary needs per species. We simply do not give wild reptiles credit for the sheer volume and diversity of food sources that they eat and they way that these food sources interact and supplement each other.

Avian and reptilian eggs are readily consumed by most species in one way or another and as an example these are great source of most of the vital vits and minerals. Does that means that we should offer human grade hens eggs to our Beardies?? No but we can learn from the principle.

We know for instance that both vitamin D3 and A can in theory be over supplied in a pure/synthetic form. So in my mind it is safer to supply these elements as nature would. So in the safer form of Beta carotene which is converted as required in the body to vitamin A and through exposure to UVB for the D3 cycle which again is regulated by the body and as such cannot be over supplied.

I have no issues at all with plain Ca being left in a viv, if it is changed regularly to stop it spoiling. Ca would be commonly found in most things so it is quite natural. But we do need to ensure that enough D3 is being provided to make use of it. Personally I feel that replicating nature is safer than powders.

Then it is up to us as keepers to provide dietary variety and ensure fantastic hydration which I think is a secret killer of reptiles (poor hydration) on a scale that we don't understand as yet.

So copy the wild and I'm sure that your pet will thrive

John,
 
#10 ·
we have to de-construct everything and always refer to nature, that is my belief.
I don't think this is strictly true, I can think of numerous examples of improved performance in captivity, when optimal conditions are achievable, that simply does not, and could not happen in nature. Although of course I take the general point.

My problem with supplements as every body knows is that NO ONE knows how much we should make available per species and per gram of body weight. NO one knows how much is too much and how much is not enough. It really is "crystal ball" territory.
This is simply not true either, it is very easy to measure blood metabolite concentrations using HPLC and very accurately calculate required doses, and plenty of it has been done. Just because vitamin and powder diet producing companies don't do it, doesn't mean nobody knows. This sort of argument really just doesn't cut it.

I do believe wholeheartedly that it is possible and actually quite common for animals to be over provided the "synthetics". This is made worse by the fact that an over supply of assimilated Ca that is Ca that has been over supplied with synthetic D3 manifests in largely the same way as MBD :-( so in some cases and usually those that are treated "at home" the levels of powder are increased further to fight what looks like depletion whereas in reality it probably is not. This is the reason that I always insist that MBD is not diagnosed by a picture on a forum but by a vet and only after Bloods and X-ray are taken. It really is the only way to be sure.
Again, plenty of evidence that this is not true. Oral supplementation of D3 has been pretty conclusively shown to be inefficient at reaching the regulatory maximum in numerous species.

One suspects that this idea comes from misdiagnosis of MBD (which is frankly a confusing umbrella term to many people - a pitfall it appear you also fall into here), and from early cases of tissue calcification in Iguanas and Boscs that were inappropriately fed too much vertebrate tissue (itself containing high levels of D3 and calcium - so NOT synthetic), and NOT from vitamin supplementation. I suggest you would be VERY hard pushed to find a confirmed (and verified) case of soft tissue calcification in captivity caused by oral D3 supplementation.

Avian and reptilian eggs are readily consumed by most species in one way or another and as an example these are great source of most of the vital vits and minerals. Does that means that we should offer human grade hens eggs to our Beardies?? No but we can learn from the principle.
I don't think there is really a lot of evidence to support this claim. Of course I am aware of typical sources, butI think to suggest "most", and imply high frequency is really not realistic at all. At a best guess, the frequency of egg consumption (by non-specific feeders), is likely very very low.

We know for instance that both vitamin D3 and A can in theory be over supplied in a pure/synthetic form. So in my mind it is safer to supply these elements as nature would. So in the safer form of Beta carotene which is converted as required in the body to vitamin A and through exposure to UVB for the D3 cycle which again is regulated by the body and as such cannot be over supplied.
Vitamin A is another matter altogether, and over-supplementation is possible, but as above not for D3. While I don't disagree that appropriate lighting is the way forward, I don't like using very poor (and often incorrect, as shown above) information to try to sell it...

So copy the wild and I'm sure that your pet will thrive

John,
Again, without some form of delimitation, this is simply ridiculous "advice".

Andy
 
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