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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 05-05-2018, 01:54 PM
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I will always take the world of a 'real' person with credentials and proven years of experience, over the word of someone on a forum


A vet has NO "credentials" in reptile identification!!!! A vet qualified in reptile medicine may have a personal interest in reptiles and may well keep reptiles. But being a vet gives no more qualification in reptiles generally than anyone on here.
As for your bizarre notion of "a real person", what do you think we are, computers????

I have a degree in zoology. That doesn't make me an instant expert on all animals. Just as a degree in veterinary medicine doesn't make you an expert in all things animal related.

I have already given you a real world example of a reptile vet agreeing that someone with a lot of practical experience in reptile husbandry is better placed to give expert evidence.

I have 29 years of experience with reptiles and have had UK captive breeding firsts for a couple of species. I am a wildlife crime officer and the point of contact for all exotic animal incidents in my force. I am one of only two people trained to enforce CITES regulations on my force. I have been asked to assist the RSPCA with reptile cruelty cases, and the Animal Welfare Inspector for my local council.
I'm not a vet but I'm probably better placed than a vet to give you an informed opinion that your snake is a hybrid.
As has been pointed out already, you claimed this came from a reputable breeder. So either you know this is a hybrid as you would have been told or your breeder wasn't quite as reputable as you think he was.
In any case, you have a corn hybrid.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 05-05-2018, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Emilayy View Post

In response to Malc: I am not sure where you get the impression that I am holding something back.
Ian says it all

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Originally Posted by ian14 View Post
you claimed this came from a reputable breeder. So either you know this is a hybrid as you would have been told or your breeder wasn't quite as reputable as you think he was.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 05-05-2018, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Emilayy View Post
I will always take the world of a 'real' person with credentials and proven years of experience, over the word of someone on a forum. Would it not be foolish to believe everything someone says on the internet? So whilst I appreciate the knowledge being expressed here, I would like to hear the opinion (with regards to the breed of my snake) of somehow who I know is a professional, and who I know has years of reptile keeping experience. And, as mentioned previously, the issue of my male's breed is not of a huge concern to me. Now, as it has been brought up, it is simply of my own interest that I would like a professional's opinion. I know no other reptile-wise people or breeders near me (and I do not trust the word of those working in reptile shops), therefore this is the most logical option.

Has my statement of, 'The fact that he may be a hybrid does seem less alien now', not expressed clearly enough that I am accepting what is being said? No, I of course don't like the fact that I am being told my snake is not the snake I thought he is, but I do not see anywhere in my last couple of replies which suggests that I am not accepting the possibility that he is a hybrid. If I have missed something, and it does in fact look like I am in denial of the breed of my snake, allow me to emphasize: I don't care what breed he is. If he is a hybrid, it makes no difference to me or any of my plans for his offspring. If he is a hybrid, then that's pretty cool.
I'm sorry you feel that you have had a bit of an ear (eye? )bashing for what was a simple question really, but your first sentence above shows a great deal of defensiveness when given an answer that you did not like. The people who did answer your question have a great deal of actual hands on experience with corn snakes. The first thing I thought when I saw the snake was "hybrid" (and yes, I was keeping corns nearly 25 years ago when there were almost no morphs in the UK.)
And yes, I also understand you are ok with that now.

The second part is more of a tricky one.
If a "respected" breeder can pass off a hybrid as a corn snake, well, you can see the state that the poor old corn snake lineage is in.
If you want to breed these snakes, no one can stop you. And why shouldn't you? People have been passing off hybrids as "pure" corns for well over a decade. That's why corns in the hobby are ******, basically.
If I can give you any advice that may enhance your reputation slightly within the hobby, it is this; When you sell the offspring, sell them honestly as hybrids.

I could say; please don't breed them/hatch the eggs, but I think that there is a good chance that you have already made up your mind.
Just my opinion, sorry.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 05-05-2018, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Paul F View Post
(and yes, I was keeping corns nearly 25 years ago when there were almost no morphs in the UK.)
Ahhh the good old days when a spade was a spade
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 05-05-2018, 11:51 PM
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Not sure why people still think it is necessary to respond to this thread when my issue has clearly been resolved, but I will reply to these last few responses regardless.

I don't know why I need to point out the obvious here. Clearly the breeder, rest his soul, was not reputable if I have been told I have a cornsnake but I actually have a hybrid. How on earth from my first post was I supposed to know that I don't have a cornsnake, if there were no indications to me that my male is not a cornsnake? And why on earth would I make a thread calling a hybrid a cornsnake if I was fully aware from the breeder that it was a hybrid? You (plural) make it sound like having a hybrid is a bad thing, and something that I would want to hide. Why would I want to hide that? It makes no sense at all. I own my snakes because I like them, not because of their lineage. So all of your 'you're holding something back' 'oh you must be lying, you knew all along it was a hybrid' implications within your comments are drastically misplaced. I am not sure what kind of person you think I am, but I do not have the patience or will to lie about something so petty on an online forum. Clearly, you (plural) have the time to try and pick holes in absolutely everything when there is no need to. You are not informing me of anything I haven't already been told, so really, what is the point in continuing to respond to this thread unless you just want to argue and make mountains out of molehills. A lot of people have been informative and helpful on this thread, but some just seem to be trying to place fault on me where there is none.

'As for your bizarre notion of "a real person", what do you think we are, computers????' Did you not notice the quotation marks I used around the word 'real'? I could come on this site or another and easily say to someone 'I have 25 years of reptile keeping experience. I have a degree in X. Your snake is X. You need X to care for X. I am correct because I said I have this experience'. I have none of these things, but who would know as long as I sounded like I did? I don't care what experience you say you have. I am sorry if that offends you, but it's true. The help with the morph of my snakes' offspring is appreciated, and the suggestion that he is a hybrid and not a cornsnake, is appreciated. I will take this information, and relay it to a few people who I know are knowledgeable in the subject, for their opinions on the matter. And in the grand scheme of things, whether they agree or disagree, I don't care. I just wanted to know what my snakes' babies will look like. If it offends you (plural) for some strange reason that I would take the word of someone who I know in person that has been keeping reptiles for longer than I have lived, than the word from someone who could be anyone on the internet, then I am terribly sorry.

I will reiterate: it is not necessary to continue to reply to this thread. My question has been answered, and I have made up my mind and my decisions about who to confide in for answers, and what to do with my snakes' eggs. Feel free to continue to voice your opinions or respond to this comment, however I will no longer be reading or replying to comments on this thread. To those who have actually responded to this thread or private messaged me with the intent to help me, thanks again!
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 06-05-2018, 02:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Emilayy View Post
If it offends you (plural) for some strange reason that I would take the word of someone who I know in person that has been keeping reptiles for longer than I have lived, than the word from someone who could be anyone on the internet, then I am terribly sorry
If you have more confidence in someone you know, who has been keeping snakes for a long time, to give you the advice you want, then why post on a public forum and then get pissed because someone (Ian) who is highly qualified, experienced (and because of that is called upon in a professional capacity when required) tells you something that you don't appear to want to hear.

As for the reputability of the original breeder, you have missed the point. 30 years ago (or more) morphs hardly existed in most species. Corns were the first species that were hit hard as people wanted newer and newer traits. Often in order to get one-up on other breeders a breeder (I say that as corns are so easy to breed anyone can do it without trying) started to look at cross-breeding corns with other N.American rat snakes, and then with other species including king snakes... Over the years these hybrids were then bred with other true morphs of corn snakes (and even pure "natural" corns) and thus the gene pool became mucked up with a capital F ! - The comments you received regarding breeding from your snakes, one of which has been identified by two different people as being a hybrid is because a lot of people feel passionately about how bad hybridisation has effected the gene pool and don't like to see it being made any worse. Like I said, whilst we can all voice our opinions in this public forum it's entirely up to what you do with the off-spring, and whether or not you are honest when you sell them (or the shop are).

You said you have posted your last reply on this thread, fair do's, again that's your prerogative, and I really don't give a toss if you read this reply or not, but hopefully it goes some way to explaining why you got the responses you did, with the reasons behind them.
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Last edited by Malc; 06-05-2018 at 02:22 AM..
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 06-05-2018, 04:14 AM
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I am now under the impression that my snake is not a cornsnake. So I just assumed that this response was informing me of what the offspring would look like, if and only if, the father is a cornsnake. I was not aware that your previous comment still applied regardless of the breed of the father. So thank you for answering my question, am I correct in thinking that 100% of the offspring will therefore look like this?:
Ians Vivarium - Rootbeer Cornsnake
Yes. The appearance may vary as the mother appears to be a corn rather than a corn hybrid.
This means that the hybrid gene, probably from emoryi, will be diluted, so the young will have more of a corn appearance.
Being different genetic morphs the young will all be normal in appearance but will also carry the genes for amel and caramel.
You could of course hold a pair back to breed in a couple of years to see the outcome.
As I said originally, given the existing mess of corn genes, hatching the eggs, in my opinion, isn't an issue, just be honest when selling.
One other thing to consider is hidden unknown hets. With the enormous scale of corn breeding, genetically pure morphs are as rare as genetically pure corns. There's a good chance both parents have unknown genes hidden away that could appear in hatchlings.
I had this when I hatched ultramels and anery ultramels from a pairing in which this outcome should not have been possible.
I personally would be interested to see what pops out.

Last edited by ian14; 06-05-2018 at 04:18 AM..
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