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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 08-10-2019, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by elishacoombes9 View Post
Yes I noticed that’s an old one just now couldn’t change it. I’m currently reading through again as haven’t since college!
The law is you cannot cause suffering to animals. Which surely live feeding does?



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'Surely live feeding does' - that has never been put before a court of law. It is the big assumption that always catches people out.

Rat poison causes suffering to animals. That's legal.
Euthanasia with CO2 causes suffering to animals. That's also legal.
There are many, many other examples of things causing 'suffering' to animals that are legal. It is the 'undue' bit that is the sticky word.

There is no indication anywhere that live feeding would be considered 'undue suffering' particularly if the animal in question would not accept anything else (it has been stated in the past that this is the prerequisite to feed live - that all other avenues have been tried and not feeding live would harm the predator. But actually there is nowhere in UK law that states this either).

Until somebody actually is prosecuted specifically for feeding a vertebrate to another vertebrate, there is no precedent to assume live feeding would be considered 'undue suffering.'
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 08-10-2019, 08:29 PM
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As said each to their own. Iím stating my opinion like everyone else.
The snakes my partner owned and friends have are on frozen.


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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 08-10-2019, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by elishacoombes9 View Post
As said each to their own. Iím stating my opinion like everyone else.
The snakes my partner owned and friends have are on frozen.


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There is nothing wrong with stating an opinion. Personally I think live feeding should probably only be used as a last resort. I have friends who think otherwise and consider it a very enriching experience for their predators, and I cannot argue with that. And there is a very strong case indeed to be made that live feeding is a far more ethical and less stressful way of dying than, for example, being gassed en masse with CO2 as most rodents we use as feeders are.

However stating something that is not illegal is illegal, is wrong.
At the end of the day, our opinions are of no consequence to somebody that is not breaking the law.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 08-10-2019, 08:39 PM
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Default Breeding Reptiles as Feeders? (Hyopthetical)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thrasops View Post
There is nothing wrong with stating an opinion. Personally I think live feeding should probably only be used as a last resort. I have friends who think otherwise and consider it a very enriching experience for their predators, and I cannot argue with that. And there is a very strong case indeed to be made that live feeding is a far more ethical and less stressful way of dying than, for example, being gassed en masse with CO2 as most rodents we use as feeders are.



However stating something that is not illegal is illegal, is wrong.

At the end of the day, our opinions are of no consequence to somebody that is not breaking the law.


I did correct myself though. As said I actually thought it was illegal, have had a good read through the animal welfare act 2006 again and educated myself more on this!


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Old 08-10-2019, 09:01 PM
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Multi quote isn't working for me for some reason...



Should have made it clear I wasn't talking about feeding live. Was talking feeding slugs, stillborns or natural deaths from clutches. Or the commercial way would be mass breeding and euthanasia as we do with rats/mice. I think you're all right that mass breeding most reptiles would be unreasonable. Too much time and effort involved. Although, could work with mourning geckos but then you're limited to their size as Francis said.


Unfortunately where I live there are no shops that sell anything different in terms of food. Jumbo rats and day old chicks is about as exotic as it gets here.



But I think on a small scale it would be viable, eg, a breeder freezing and selling off any slugs, still borns and those that give up and die young. I'm sure if a shop had frozen reptiles every now and then they would sell. I'd buy them anyways.


And my two cents on the legality of feeding live... I read that it is legal as long as it's not suffering. Who determines what that means exactly, I have no idea... Personally, I wouldn't feed live UNLESS I had tried every option other than force feeding. At this point the choice is let my animal suffer and starve to death or give it live and hope the prey gets a quick death. We could go round and round like so many others have on this so lets just agree that we all want the best for our animals and the food they eat to also be treated with equal respect.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 08-10-2019, 09:42 PM
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LOL - somehow I knew this topic would result in the discussion over live feeding and the ethics / laws and mis-information found by using the internet - Google (and other search engines) have a lot to answer for

In a nutshell whatever animal is used as a feeder item will suffer. It's call death ! One moment it's living its life as intended, the next it's dead. How it dies, and to what degree of pain or suffering it endures in the process is what defines if the process is humane or not, and if complaint with whatever guidelines have been agreed through parliament.

People sometimes quote examples of people being prosecuted for feeding live, when in fact they were prosecuted for a poor welfare issue as that is easier to prove in court. No one can deduce how much stress or suffering a rodent suffers when fed live to a snake, or placed in a bucket and gassed with CO2. As humans we can make an educated guess, but can't prove it. But if the same animal is kept in inappropriate conditions that is easier to prove and get a conviction.

Anyway to try and answer the OP's question, I can't see it ever working either privately or as a commercial alternative / supplement to existing and readily available food items. The main reason is unlike rodents, reptiles don't reproduce frequently enough, nor mature quick enough to meet demand. I can only talk about using snakes as a feed item, so you would need to wait two to three years until the females are mature enough to breed. You would need something that produces multiple clutches, so that rules out most pythons. Corns can lay upwards of 30 eggs and double clutch in a year, so you could get around 60 eggs, so that's one baby snake a week for a year. But you have to rear them so would have the additional expense of pinks, fuzzies. But the logistics of raising the feeder corns to appropriate size for say a King snake could be problematical.

But then we're back to the ethics of euthanasia of the hatchlings, or live feeding a hatchling corn to a yearling king... Given the success rates these days there are little enough still borns to make that a viable option either.

Look at any online supplier of reptile / raptor food and whilst predominantly rodent based, there is a wide selection of alternatives to mice and rats. The trick is that most (granted not all) snakes that would normally prey on other snakes and lizards can be tricked and weaned onto rodents.
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Old 08-10-2019, 10:46 PM
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Just incase you've not seen the speed a venomous snakes dispatchs its prey, it is quick to say the least. This is a Calloselasma rhodostoma certainly not considered one of the big hitters.

Warning this is live feeding, although not particularly graphic and it's not one of my animals. I don't feed mine live, for no other reason than I can't be arsed to breed rodents.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yHmTMtULpU
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 09-10-2019, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GT2540 View Post
Just incase you've not seen the speed a venomous snakes dispatchs its prey, it is quick to say the least. This is a Calloselasma rhodostoma certainly not considered one of the big hitters.

Warning this is live feeding, although not particularly graphic and it's not one of my animals. I don't feed mine live, for no other reason than I can't be arsed to breed rodents.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yHmTMtULpU
To the person posting on this thread who has now twice reported the above:

GT2540 has linked a video which is readily available on the internet and has quite clearly stated the content and added a warning.

It is entirely up to users should they wish to click on it or not.
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Old 09-10-2019, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Shellsfeathers&fur View Post
To the person posting on this thread who has now twice reported the above:

GT2540 has linked a video which is readily available on the internet and has quite clearly stated the content and added a warning.

It is entirely up to users should they wish to click on it or not.


what's ironic is i reckon that animal was killed far quicker then the techniques we use to kill frozen thawed prey items - The hypocrisy is real.
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Old 09-10-2019, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shellsfeathers&fur View Post
To the person posting on this thread who has now twice reported the above:
Wasn't me
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