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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 03-01-2010, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by burmman View Post
thats why we have ppl like you mate to ask if we have a problem, i wouldn't think twice about asking you a question cause i know if you didn't know, you'd know some 1 who does and you'll get back to me asap!

thnx for the compliment bud
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 18-05-2015, 05:34 PM
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Curious to know, so if the eggs are meant to take approx 60-70 days would the 70 days be seen as the 'due date' in which I should put a cut in the egg? Or should I do it at 69 days and then leave them to it?
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Old 18-05-2015, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Sibro7 View Post
Curious to know, so if the eggs are meant to take approx 60-70 days would the 70 days be seen as the 'due date' in which I should put a cut in the egg? Or should I do it at 69 days and then leave them to it?
I meant 60* days not 69
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Old 18-05-2015, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Sibro7 View Post
Curious to know, so if the eggs are meant to take approx 60-70 days would the 70 days be seen as the 'due date' in which I should put a cut in the egg? Or should I do it at 60 days and then leave them to it?
You will get a lot of different answers to this question. For what it's worth, I cut eggs at 80-90 days.
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Old 18-05-2015, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by paulh View Post
You will get a lot of different answers to this question. For what it's worth, I cut eggs at 80-90 days.
So from what I gather it really depends on how the babies are getting on with their growth. Are there any signs to look out for?
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Old 18-05-2015, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by BigBaz View Post
yeh another comment from someone who has no clue at all .
Perhaps a little harsh?

The point he makes is not really about having a clue or not, its about personal ethics.

Totally hypothetical, because I do not, nor have any plans to breed reptiles but, personally I would not think twice about give them a helping hand.

That said I totally get his argument and can respect anybody who takes that stance.

Its all about survival of the fittest and our intervention allowing genetic weaknesses to proliferate.
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Old 19-05-2015, 01:10 AM
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Cutting eggs has no purpose other than the breeder wanting to know what is hiding in the egg. There is no reason to cut eggs ever. Snakes have been hatching on their own for eons in and out of captivity.

If a snake is meant to hatch, it will do so on its own without a problem. If it can not hatch on its own, it is probably better off not hatching. There is a reason why it can not hatch on its own and whatever that reason is, I do not want it perpetuated in my collection.

I do not understand why some people think that every egg needs to hatch and all the babies need to survive.

And to be quite honest, I would say out of a hundred eggs, maybe 2 will not make it out on its own in my experience. To me, it is not worth cutting eggs.

Out of all the comments on that thread, this one below happens to be the most inaccurate and uneducated.

Quote:
In nature many would die, reasons for cutting eggs, usually when one has pipped are, the eggs deflate prior to the hatchling breaking out, there for no air pocket & babies can & do drown in the egg
There is no air pocket in the egg to begin with. Embryos get their oxygen from the vascular system that attaches to the egg wall. Eggs "deflate" prior to hatching because they rapidly lose moisture. Has nothing to do with an air pocket.
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Last edited by Gregg M; 19-05-2015 at 01:22 AM..
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Old 19-05-2015, 02:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Gregg M View Post
Cutting eggs has no purpose other than the breeder wanting to know what is hiding in the egg. There is no reason to cut eggs ever. Snakes have been hatching on their own for eons in and out of captivity.

If a snake is meant to hatch, it will do so on its own without a problem. If it can not hatch on its own, it is probably better off not hatching. There is a reason why it can not hatch on its own and whatever that reason is, I do not want it perpetuated in my collection.

I do not understand why some people think that every egg needs to hatch and all the babies need to survive.

And to be quite honest, I would say out of a hundred eggs, maybe 2 will not make it out on its own in my experience. To me, it is not worth cutting eggs.
That is such an interesting reply. Interesting because it quite graphically reveals where you have drawn your own personal line in the sand. You are happy to help but, only to that point. Hypothetically somebody could use the exact same reasoning to explain why they personally think incubating eggs is wrong.

That would not make you wrong it would just indicate that they have placed their personal line in the sand in a slightly different position. Which is pretty much the point I was making in my previous reply. Sometimes things cant be simplified and condensed down to right or wrong.

Such a minefield once you start debating ethics because often its not about black and white, right and wrong but, various shades of grey.
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Old 19-05-2015, 06:34 AM
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ur argument would be valid if the resulting offspring (and their resulting offspring) were to face the wrath of mother nature

but

1)the captive raised neonate is given as much clean healthy food as its stomach can process, therfore automatically saving animals with deficiencys that preclude capture of enough prey to sustain a fertile wild breeding cycle - conclusion captivity allows the survival of specimens that could not survive in the wild - result - there are captive specimens only capable of captive life, that would fail in the wild

2)virtually all illnesses faced by the animal are cured by modern veterinary help, virtually any specimen with problems hidden or expressed can go on to produce viable young - conclusion a defective gene, hidden or expressed, that would cause wild failure is supported and passed on - result - there are captive specimens only capable of captive life, that would fail in the wild

3)no predators prey on them, therfore allowing weaknesses that would make them susceptible to predation to survive, whether these weaknesses are hidden or expressed. - conclusion the basic concept of survival of the strongest genes is circumvented by artificial support. - result - there are captive specimens only capable of captive life, that would fail in the wild

4) they are exposed to an optimal evironment 24/7, 365 days, no bad weather to affect prey populations, no rainstorms to flood hides and exposure to predation, no suboptimal brumation conditions, conclusion specimens that would fail under suboptimal wild parameters are allowed to thrive - result - there are captive specimens only capable of captive life, that would fail in the wild

5)water is provided on an optimal schedule, drought doesnt affect a single part of the life cycle conclusion a gene(s) for drought susceptibility are allowed to thrive - result - there are captive specimens only capable of captive life, that would fail in the wild

everthing up to and including the incubation that resulted in ur neonate hatching unassisted from its egg is an artificially and actively supported process of captivity, none of the 99 steps that led to the successful neonate was natural, egg cutting would be the 100th artificial step.

final conclusion and result, the naturally hatched neonates are as comprised genetically by artificial support from conception to first breathe as those that slither from a cut egg.

"naturally" hatched captive neonates are no more akin to wild neonates than those helped from the egg. captivity has its own evolution, its own natural selection, to produce specimens suited to captive life, to withhold support at the very last step only punishes the captive genome for survival, nothing else, and is a mistake given that the end result is a purely artificial captive entity, a pet, already shaped by captivity before its conception.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregg M View Post
Cutting eggs has no purpose other than the breeder wanting to know what is hiding in the egg. There is no reason to cut eggs ever. Snakes have been hatching on their own for eons in and out of captivity.

If a snake is meant to hatch, it will do so on its own without a problem. If it can not hatch on its own, it is probably better off not hatching. There is a reason why it can not hatch on its own and whatever that reason is, I do not want it perpetuated in my collection.

I do not understand why some people think that every egg needs to hatch and all the babies need to survive.

And to be quite honest, I would say out of a hundred eggs, maybe 2 will not make it out on its own in my experience. To me, it is not worth cutting eggs.

Out of all the comments on that thread, this one below happens to be the most inaccurate and uneducated.



There is no air pocket in the egg to begin with. Embryos get their oxygen from the vascular system that attaches to the egg wall. Eggs "deflate" prior to hatching because they rapidly lose moisture. Has nothing to do with an air pocket.
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Last edited by loxocemus; 19-05-2015 at 06:42 AM..
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 19-05-2015, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by loxocemus View Post
ur argument would be valid if the resulting offspring (and their resulting offspring) were to face the wrath of mother nature

but

1)the captive raised neonate is given as much clean healthy food as its stomach can process, therfore automatically saving animals with deficiencys that preclude capture of enough prey to sustain a fertile wild breeding cycle - conclusion captivity allows the survival of specimens that could not survive in the wild - result - there are captive specimens only capable of captive life, that would fail in the wild

2)virtually all illnesses faced by the animal are cured by modern veterinary help, virtually any specimen with problems hidden or expressed can go on to produce viable young - conclusion a defective gene, hidden or expressed, that would cause wild failure is supported and passed on - result - there are captive specimens only capable of captive life, that would fail in the wild

3)no predators prey on them, therfore allowing weaknesses that would make them susceptible to predation to survive, whether these weaknesses are hidden or expressed. - conclusion the basic concept of survival of the strongest genes is circumvented by artificial support. - result - there are captive specimens only capable of captive life, that would fail in the wild

4) they are exposed to an optimal evironment 24/7, 365 days, no bad weather to affect prey populations, no rainstorms to flood hides and exposure to predation, no suboptimal brumation conditions, conclusion specimens that would fail under suboptimal wild parameters are allowed to thrive - result - there are captive specimens only capable of captive life, that would fail in the wild

5)water is provided on an optimal schedule, drought doesnt affect a single part of the life cycle conclusion a gene(s) for drought susceptibility are allowed to thrive - result - there are captive specimens only capable of captive life, that would fail in the wild

everthing up to and including the incubation that resulted in ur neonate hatching unassisted from its egg is an artificially and actively supported process of captivity, none of the 99 steps that led to the successful neonate was natural, egg cutting would be the 100th artificial step.

final conclusion and result, the naturally hatched neonates are as comprised genetically by artificial support from conception to first breathe as those that slither from a cut egg.

"naturally" hatched captive neonates are no more akin to wild neonates than those helped from the egg. captivity has its own evolution, its own natural selection, to produce specimens suited to captive life, to withhold support at the very last step only punishes the captive genome for survival, nothing else, and is a mistake given that the end result is a purely artificial captive entity, a pet, already shaped by captivity before its conception.

rgds
ed
So, how is my argument invalid? Because I do not see a reason to "save" neonates that can not hatch on their own or because I do not want animals in my collection that may potentially be weak? My argument is just as valid as those who make up reasons to cut eggs.

Just think, after all the optimal conditions we offer that you listed, some snakes still do not make it out on their own. They might not be meant to be. They surely are not meant to be in my collection. That is my preference. Not saying that people who cut eggs are wrong. I am just saying there is no reason for it other than not being able to wait any longer. For example Hogs usually hatch out at day 55. However, I have had clutches go almost 70 days. And guess what. The eventually hatched out on their own. Now if I had cut them on day 55, I most likely would have killed the entire clutch. I have also had snakes in the same clutch hatch a week apart from others in the clutch. So, if I would have cut after the first pips, I may have killed the ones that were not yet ready to hatch.

Even the genetic mutation you talk about can and do survive in the wild. In fact, most morphs on the market today were wild caught, many were wild caught adults that were thriving in their natural habitat. So, using that argument against mine is pointless.

The real reason why anyone would cut eggs is impatience. There is no other need for it. Like I said, for 2 eggs that might not be able to hatch on their own, it is not worth cutting open a hundred, "just incase".
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