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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2012, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by richwhite View Post
I agree that they can't be given to the pet trade because there are too many. Then again, maybe they could round up what they find and dump them back in Burma

But on the ecosystem, it's humans who have driven numerous species to extinction or near extinction. There aren't animals in sanctuaries and zoos so they can breed because other animals have wiped them out AFAIA. There are about 7 billion people on the planet, and that number can't be sustained. From an objective point of view, the biggest benefit to ecosystems on a global level would be to cull the number of humans. And again, given that animals have always, since time began, found their way to new territories and the earth is still here and inhabitable, how much of a threat is it really? (And i ask that seriously, not facetiously.) Humans have been around for a tiny, tiny percentage of the earth's history and the history of many animals, including reptiles. Ecosystems and animals adapted to thrive. There are casualties for sure, but it's not bringing around the end of the world.
There is a demonstrable impact on native species, often devastatingly so. Ask an Australian ecologist or conservationist why they have such strict import/export laws now...

Zoos, pet-keeping, farming and other man-influenced activities are also an argument for the culling of these Burms et al. Note that Florida also suffers from invasive Green Iguanas, African Rock Pythons and others. Since man, as was astutely pointed out, has become the dominant species on this planet and taken artificial control of his environment, it likewise falls to man to manage it sustainably. Having accidentally released an apex predator the only thing to do is clean up the mess - i.e. cull the population.

Bringing natural species migration and evolution over millennia isn't relevant and is a straw man at best. Burms and Afrocks would definitely not have swum over to Florida and established themselves had man not done it for them. As with any invasive alien species, it's the fact the native flora and fauna haven't had the millennia to adapt that makes it so damn dangerous - generally to the indigenous species.

Even if you don't want to read up on the ecology of it, maybe watch some of the Crocodile Hunter episodes about feral species. They explain briefly why it's so bad, and show Steve hunting them amongst other things.

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Originally Posted by marcel27 View Post
and you believe people do not bring carnage to the ecosystem, have you been to britain at all, obviously not.
Ignoring the fact that I clearly live in Britian - and have all my life - what's your point? It's quite right to say that mankind has dominated this planet and evolved to the stage where this is done by artificial means. But that likewise brings a responsibility to do so sensibly and sustainably - including mopping up the 'mess' in the Everglades, Australia etc.

People who go on about population control may have a point long-term. But as for culling? My response is always the same: You and your family first if that's how you feel. I'll think about it.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2012, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by richwhite View Post
A truly natural balance is one that is constantly in flux, because nothing, nature especially, stays the same. I have said a few times on here how ecosystems have changed since the dawn of time, and that includes animals that have found new territories before humans even existed. It's natural selection, it drives evolution and pushes things further along.

Quite frankly, and again objectively, anyone in favour of culling for the sake of an ecosystem should be signing a petition to cull people. Because there is not a shadow of a doubt that we are the most destructive force in the world. We kill endless animals, for trophies or clothes, people hunt for pleasure and to feel superior. We destroy rainforests and endless acres of land and build polluting factories instead. We kill more animals than animals do. Removing people would be the biggest benefit the world could imagine. Just think, we could not survive without animals and ecosystems, but without us, the planet would be in a far better state.
Thank you! exactly what i wanted to say.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2012, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Purple_D View Post
So cos of some accident part human, a non native species should be allowed to wipe out native species,Not the way i think sos.
We had it here years ago with mink,they devastated whole areas.
As for the culling of humans,does wars not do that,is that "natures" way
Not one of your finest posts i have to say.
Animals eat each other whether they're native or not. Are we suggesting that prey animals in Burma are more equipped to handle Burmese pythons? The animals in Florida are having their numbers reduced by native species too you know.
And war does kill many people, but the wrong people perhaps. We have yet to launch a war on people who decide it's fun to hunt deer and foxes and kill badgers, or hunt snakes to make cool boots and necklaces. We haven't culled the people who have actually pushed animals to the point of extinction.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2012, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Rainmaker View Post

Ignoring the fact that I clearly live in Britian - and have all my life - what's your point? It's quite right to say that mankind has dominated this planet and evolved to the stage where this is done by artificial means. But that likewise brings a responsibility to do so sensibly and sustainably - including mopping up the 'mess' in the Everglades, Australia etc.
I was being sarcastic, you know, that old social convention
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2012, 04:21 PM
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reading all this has actually made me chuckle! I must admit here and now that im a MASSIVE bunny hugger... but culling is a necessary evil im afraid. People need to take a closer look at the situation...the burms didn't migrate over to the everglades naturally, they are there because of people. Because of this they are now out competing native wildlife and will eventually take over causing many other animals to starve to death... natural diversity is there for a reason and should be preserved. Culling happens everywhere, private collections, zoo's, the wild... it is necessary to keep different populations strong.
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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2012, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Rainmaker View Post
There is a demonstrable impact on native species, often devastatingly so. Ask an Australian ecologist or conservationist why they have such strict import/export laws now...

Zoos, pet-keeping, farming and other man-influenced activities are also an argument for the culling of these Burms et al. Note that Florida also suffers from invasive Green Iguanas, African Rock Pythons and others. Since man, as was astutely pointed out, has become the dominant species on this planet and taken artificial control of his environment, it likewise falls to man to manage it sustainably. Having accidentally released an apex predator the only thing to do is clean up the mess - i.e. cull the population.

Bringing natural species migration and evolution over millennia isn't relevant and is a straw man at best. Burms and Afrocks would definitely not have swum over to Florida and established themselves had man not done it for them. As with any invasive alien species, it's the fact the native flora and fauna haven't had the millennia to adapt that makes it so damn dangerous - generally to the indigenous species.

Even if you don't want to read up on the ecology of it, maybe watch some of the Crocodile Hunter episodes about feral species. They explain briefly why it's so bad, and show Steve hunting them amongst other things.



Ignoring the fact that I clearly live in Britian - and have all my life - what's your point? It's quite right to say that mankind has dominated this planet and evolved to the stage where this is done by artificial means. But that likewise brings a responsibility to do so sensibly and sustainably - including mopping up the 'mess' in the Everglades, Australia etc.

People who go on about population control may have a point long-term. But as for culling? My response is always the same: You and your family first if that's how you feel. I'll think about it.
Very good argument. And i just want to state again that i'm not against culling per se, i'm just playing devil's advocate because i don't think it's quite so cut and dry as is often made out.
Of course there are concerns about non-native species, but i think it's a straw man argument to say that Florida hasn't had millennia to adapt. Nothing has millennia to adapt until long after the incident. The world did not adapt in preparation of invasive species!

The snakes could easily have wound up in Florida in future. They wouldn't have swum across no, but the earth is still moving. That argument is the same as saying a hundred million years ago that no animal would go somewhere else. Things chance and opportunities become present.

I agree we have a responsibility to sustain the environment, and i think we're doing a terrible job, from a global perspective. On a list of priority i would put burms in Florida quite low, considering how many things we have wiped out or nearly wiped out.
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2012, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by richwhite View Post
Not one of your finest posts i have to say.
Animals eat each other whether they're native or not. Are we suggesting that prey animals in Burma are more equipped to handle Burmese pythons? The animals in Florida are having their numbers reduced by native species too you know.
And war does kill many people, but the wrong people perhaps. We have yet to launch a war on people who decide it's fun to hunt deer and foxes and kill badgers, or hunt snakes to make cool boots and necklaces. We haven't culled the people who have actually pushed animals to the point of extinction.
Lets get back to the basics,this "debate" is not about humans,its about a non native animal reeking havoc in a foriegn(to it) eco system.Again cane toad in oz as a example.Yes animals do eat each other,and their eco system as developed to cope with that.In eco systems you normally have 1 apex predator,not so now in the glades,so being the system is un balanced.
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2012, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Purple_D View Post
Lets get back to the basics,this "debate" is not about humans,its about a non native animal reeking havoc in a foriegn(to it) eco system.
Right, and that's exactly what humans are...
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2012, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by richwhite View Post
A truly natural balance is one that is constantly in flux, because nothing, nature especially, stays the same. I have said a few times on here how ecosystems have changed since the dawn of time, and that includes animals that have found new territories before humans even existed. It's natural selection, it drives evolution and pushes things further along.

Quite frankly, and again objectively, anyone in favour of culling for the sake of an ecosystem should be signing a petition to cull people. Because there is not a shadow of a doubt that we are the most destructive force in the world. We kill endless animals, for trophies or clothes, people hunt for pleasure and to feel superior. We destroy rainforests and endless acres of land and build polluting factories instead. We kill more animals than animals do. Removing people would be the biggest benefit the world could imagine. Just think, we could not survive without animals and ecosystems, but without us, the planet would be in a far better state.
you could make a start by commiting suicide then? Surely that would be a start, and I assume that you are using a solar powered computer to post on here, to reduce your carbon footprint?
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2012, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by richwhite View Post
Very good argument. And i just want to state again that i'm not against culling per se, i'm just playing devil's advocate because i don't think it's quite so cut and dry as is often made out.
Of course there are concerns about non-native species, but i think it's a straw man argument to say that Florida hasn't had millennia to adapt. Nothing has millennia to adapt until long after the incident. The world did not adapt in preparation of invasive species!

The snakes could easily have wound up in Florida in future. They wouldn't have swum across no, but the earth is still moving. That argument is the same as saying a hundred million years ago that no animal would go somewhere else. Things chance and opportunities become present.

I agree we have a responsibility to sustain the environment, and i think we're doing a terrible job, from a global perspective. On a list of priority i would put burms in Florida quite low, considering how many things we have wiped out or nearly wiped out.
It's not a straw man to say Florida hasn't had millennia to adapt to the introduction of Burms etc. It's a fact. Migrating populations and evolution have nothing to do with the sudden and dramatic increase of a non-native animal introduced by man.

There's a reason we don't have many red squirrels left - it's because the Greys (and more specifically the pox they carry) has wiped them out. There won't be any left soon at this rate. An example of non-native alien species damaging a native ecosystem.

Burms moving into the 'glades isn't just "one more predator preying on stuff anyway".... it's an immensely strong, fast-breeding apex predator out-competing the native wildlife for the prey. Tens of thousands of new Burms and Afrocks etc introduced every year means less and less food for native snakes, Crocs etc. Guess who suffers?
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