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  #81 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2012, 04:53 PM
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It's very unfortunate, but I don't think they have a lot of choice at this point. In Miami-Dade County they passed laws that restricted the ownership of burmese (and other large snakes). Because of this its got to be hard to find owners for every wild Burmese python that they find.

Exporting them really isn't a reasonable option, so you don't have much options left. They are causing damage to the ecosystem and a lot of people are afraid of them.

However, I think the problem is getting a bit futile at this point. They are multiplying faster than they can be controlled.
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  #82 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2012, 04:54 PM
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Exactly my point. Saying it's natural selection and then introducing arguments about man's domination and colonisation of the earth ignores the fact that (1) it was Man who caused the Burm problem to begin with and (2) we ARE part of nature.
I didn't say them being there was natural selection, i said it forces natural selection to occur. And it doesn't at all ignore that we're part of nature, it acknowledges that we're the most destructive part of living nature (i.e. animals).

I'm not suggesting there's no problem in Florida. I was just trying to point out the very simple fact that if we want to talk about invasive species, destructive species that wipe out others, we're the biggest culprits.
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  #83 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2012, 04:55 PM
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Perhaps the main difference is that most of us don't really have a choice? We're born into this society and unless we actively educate ourselves and strive to change things on a personal level, that's just the way things are.

And i'm not remotely against us multiplying and advancing, i love technology as much as the next guy. But i think it's hypocritical to point to an animal and say how much destruction it's causing when white Europeans made it their job to invade as many pieces of land as possible. And push out the natives like the Aboriginals in the process. And chop down the trees in the process. And if you're going to say that it's just natural selection that this happens, then it's also natural selection for the burms to be eating the other animals in Florida, because let's face it, man put them there, but man also put itself in non-native countries. You can't have it both ways, either invading is bad and we should all retreat to our place of origin, or destroying ecosystems is bad in which case we have to take some blame too. That doesn't mean we should kill ourselves or stop advancing things, but christ, shouldn't we at least acknowledge it?

(And, unlike other animals, we kill for pleasure. Animals don't go and kill other animals to put a head on their habitat wall, or to wear around their neck. We're unique in that respect.)
Actually Chimps, foxes, mink, cats and many other animals have been seen to hunt for sport. We're predators, so I see no issues there and it has nothing to do with the problem under discussion really.

Your assertion that we either accept man's colonisation AND invasive species, or we accept neither, is fundamentally flawed. The invasive species wouldn't be there without us. It was a mistake, not nature.
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  #84 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2012, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by richwhite View Post
I didn't say them being there was natural selection, i said it forces natural selection to occur. And it doesn't at all ignore that we're part of nature, it acknowledges that we're the most destructive part of living nature (i.e. animals).

I'm not suggesting there's no problem in Florida. I was just trying to point out the very simple fact that if we want to talk about invasive species, destructive species that wipe out others, we're the biggest culprits.
Of course we are, which is what I'm saying. It was US who put Burms there, not the Burms. Invasive species are just another example of our contribution to destruction of ecosystems and habitats. Unfortunately however this one serves no natural or species-oriented purpose (as would colonisation for human habitation or farming) and as such is rightfully being corrected.
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  #85 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2012, 04:59 PM
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Perhaps the main difference is that most of us don't really have a choice? We're born into this society and unless we actively educate ourselves and strive to change things on a personal level, that's just the way things are. Thats a cop out, everyone has a choice.

And i'm not remotely against us multiplying and advancing, i love technology as much as the next guy. But i think it's hypocritical to point to an animal and say how much destruction it's causing when white Europeans made it their job to invade as many pieces of land as possible. I don;t think that anyone is blaming the burms for the problem? And push out the natives like the Aboriginals in the process. And chop down the trees in the process. And if you're going to say that it's just natural selection that this happens, then it's also natural selection for the burms to be eating the other animals in Florida, because let's face it, man put them there, but man also put itself in non-native countries. You can't have it both ways, I can have it both ways because I am (we are) the most intelligent and accomplished species on the planet, so we can have it as many ways as we like, everything we do or decide to do is as much a part of nature as a bee pollenating a flower either invading is bad and we should all retreat to our place of origin, or destroying ecosystems is bad in which case we have to take some blame too. That doesn't mean we should kill ourselves or stop advancing things, but christ, shouldn't we at least acknowledge it? Yes we can acknowledge it, no one is denying it?

(And, unlike other animals, we kill for pleasure. Animals don't go and kill other animals to put a head on their habitat wall, or to wear around their neck. We're unique in that respect.) I am afraid you are wrong there, several animals are known to kill for pleasure and/or trophies. Killer whales being one, cats another.
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  #86 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2012, 05:00 PM
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Of course we are, which is what I'm saying. It was US who put Burms there, not the Burms. Invasive species are just another example of our contribution to destruction of ecosystems and habitats. Unfortunately however this one serves no natural or species-oriented purpose (as would colonisation for human habitation or farming) and as such is rightfully being corrected.
Correct. Hence me agreeing that something probably needs to be done there. But you're wrong that invasive species wouldn't be there without us. THIS species wouldn't be there, granted. But we can't pretend that everything just stays in one place forever.


Anyway, time for me to go out now so i won't be able to reply. If this thread continues to expand at its current rate i probably won't chip in again because it will have progressed too far, but either way i won't be online for a few hours
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  #87 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2012, 05:04 PM
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Correct. Hence me agreeing that something probably needs to be done there. But you're wrong that invasive species wouldn't be there without us. THIS species wouldn't be there, granted. But we can't pretend that everything just stays in one place forever.


Anyway, time for me to go out now so i won't be able to reply. If this thread continues to expand at its current rate i probably won't chip in again because it will have progressed too far, but either way i won't be online for a few hours
Yes but the point being that any species migrating over the millions of years it takes tectonic plates to shift etc would be accounted for by nature and adaptation of species. Suddenly flooding an ecosystem with one apex predator doesn't allow this. Hence the damage, hence the threat, and hence you agreeing they probably need culling.

Nice chatting with you.
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  #88 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2012, 05:07 PM
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Yes but the point being that any species migrating over the millions of years it takes tectonic plates to shift etc would be accounted for by nature and adaptation of species. Suddenly flooding an ecosystem with one apex predator doesn't allow this. Hence the damage, hence the threat, and hence you agreeing they probably need culling.

Nice chatting with you.
well done chaps, nothing like a good old debate, everyone has there opinions, i'm bored now so i'll be off
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Old 11-10-2012, 05:09 PM
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well done chaps, nothing like a good old debate, everyone has there opinions, i'm bored now so i'll be off
cows to milk?
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Old 11-10-2012, 05:10 PM
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cows to milk?
no, i'm just bored, and debates end

people have their own opinions, realise that
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