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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 02-03-2013, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Marwolaeth View Post
Weather a hybrid looks "crazy" or "funky" is irrelevant. They are not good for the animals involved or the hobby.

There are plenty of species to choose from, No need to mix them.
A lot of the Milksnake specialists ('Triangulum' on here especially) completely agrees with this and I can see it's merit. One of the amazing things about milksnakes is that a lot of them still hold direct linage back to the 'wild-type' and are not simple 'a milksnake' - the 'Nelban' for example, Nelson x Pueblan, is just a confusing way for future breeders to muddy the water of the species.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolflore View Post
If you do a search for Imperial Milksnake you'll be pleasantly surprised.
UK-Hybrids are the way to go.

Here is my Amel Imperial Milksnake I bought from the brothers last year; I haven't told them yet but I really want to breed these myself one day in the near future.









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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 02-03-2013, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Wolflore View Post
Still think its a crime though
Haha your entitled to your opinion but I really cant see the harm.

Firstly Ive got a Milk that a friend found out in the street, no history no idea of parentage. Most likely a mongrel brought from a pet shop though it looks very much like a Pueblan (or so im told as I have no idea when it comes to colubrids) what ever I bred it with i could never labell the offspring as pure locale or whatever.

I personally feel that deny such a basic creature as a snake one of it's few instictive desires and massive part of its life cycle is really quite cruel so i feel that they should be able to have the opportunity to breed.

Add to that the Ophiophagius nature of kings and Milks, the potential excitement when it come's to hatching time of what could pop out and i think you have a real rewarding challenge.

Also whatever is produced it has zero effect on the parents, one will still be a milk the other will still be whatever I ended up deciding to buy. Maybe I will buy quite a rare locale of something or another, maybe even a pair and the year after decide to produce some pure locale stuff, help increase the gene pool and make something unusual more readily available.

Maybe as with me, the amazing colours and patterns that can be produced with milk hybrids might help spark some elses interest in a species they would otherwise of overlooked.

I do appreciate others feel differently, those are my reasons and although im not looking for a debate on the rights and wrongs I really do fail to see how it damages "the hobby" !
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Old 06-03-2013, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Stu.G View Post
What absolute nonsense.

That wasnt the question asked.I didnt ask for and neither do i want a debate on the pro's and cons of hybrids.
If you can't contribute with an answer to the question asked please dont contribute at all.
Cheers Stu

It's really not nonsense, Just not the answer you were looking for.

There really is no reason other then selfishness when it comes to hybridizing, especially in this sense. It's an on going battle trying to educate the under-educated, there is a small community who try to keep the authenticity of these snakes pure.

Of course I am nobody to you, but from a hobbyists spespective I would beg for anybody thinking of doing such a thing, is to lable the hatchlings as Hybrids, In BOLD, RED and Underlined to buyers. But If I had my way, I wouldn't even tempt the selfish parties.

Not looking to argue, just doing my duties, shall we say.

Scott
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old 06-03-2013, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Triangulum View Post
It's really not nonsense, Just not the answer you were looking for.

There really is no reason other then selfishness when it comes to hybridizing, especially in this sense. It's an on going battle trying to educate the under-educated, there is a small community who try to keep the authenticity of these snakes pure.

Of course I am nobody to you, but from a hobbyists spespective I would beg for anybody thinking of doing such a thing, is to lable the hatchlings as Hybrids, In BOLD, RED and Underlined to buyers. But If I had my way, I wouldn't even tempt the selfish parties.

Not looking to argue, just doing my duties, shall we say.

Scott
Im not looking to argue but am open to debate and to lean.

The quote of mine you have quoted was in response to a post saying " Its bad for the snakes involved and bad for the hobby"
Can you please explain to me how this is so.

It seems to me to have very little if any detrimental effect on either the hobby or the animals involved other than those that would be normally encountered through any breeding project, until you do im quite happy to stand by my statement that the post i was refering to was indeed nonsense.

As detailed in one of previous posts there are plenty of reasons for which to want to experiment with hybrids, some of them may be selfish but then every single one of us on these forums who keeps a few pet snakes or has a "collection" has so for purely selfish reasons, to think otherwise is definitely deluded.


I also do not understand how if myself or anybody else for that matter decided to breed hybrids how that would have any impact at all on any ongoing projects to keep blood lines pure? The majority of keepers I know start of with a pet snake of one species or another then get there interest in a certain speies, morphs or locales sparked and search out what they want.

As i stated earlier of I were successful in any breeding attempt then of course all offspring would be labelled clearly.

It honestly appears to me that the main reason for wanting to keep bloodlines pure or what ever is so that secimens can be line bred for certain traits in order that they fit more closely with what the breeder thinks is the perfect example of that type and often ends up little resembling what is found in the wild. Can you honestly tell me that no sub species or hybridisation has ever taken place in their natural environments?
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Old 06-03-2013, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Stu.G View Post
Im not looking to argue but am open to debate and to lean.

The quote of mine you have quoted was in response to a post saying " Its bad for the snakes involved and bad for the hobby"
Can you please explain to me how this is so.

It seems to me to have very little if any detrimental effect on either the hobby or the animals involved other than those that would be normally encountered through any breeding project, until you do im quite happy to stand by my statement that the post i was refering to was indeed nonsense.

As detailed in one of previous posts there are plenty of reasons for which to want to experiment with hybrids, some of them may be selfish but then every single one of us on these forums who keeps a few pet snakes or has a "collection" has so for purely selfish reasons, to think otherwise is definitely deluded.


I also do not understand how if myself or anybody else for that matter decided to breed hybrids how that would have any impact at all on any ongoing projects to keep blood lines pure? The majority of keepers I know start of with a pet snake of one species or another then get there interest in a certain speies, morphs or locales sparked and search out what they want.

As i stated earlier of I were successful in any breeding attempt then of course all offspring would be labelled clearly.

It honestly appears to me that the main reason for wanting to keep bloodlines pure or what ever is so that secimens can be line bred for certain traits in order that they fit more closely with what the breeder thinks is the perfect example of that type and often ends up little resembling what is found in the wild. Can you honestly tell me that no sub species or hybridisation has ever taken place in their natural environments?
I personally think you've understood this pretty well and understand the risks; however I would point out that one of the reasons that specialist breeders are at risk from the diluting of the species is visible in the current milksnake examples being sold across the UK to date. Most milksnakes you see being sold have hints of other milksnakes present within them, certainly my Nelsoni is not a pure example. This isn't a real problem per se except that potential breeders now face a mine field of having a collection full of (for example) 'Cambelli plus a little bit of everything else' and that's a real shame.

You hear stories from some of the hard-core keepers who a decade ago could trace shop and breeding animals back to wild-caught examples and certainly it would be a real treat to be able to own animals that are what they say on the tin. As much as I do like a nice hybrid here and there; it's also a bit of shame when you see countless "milksnake hybrid" labels adorning threads and expo tables. To try and put it in the best way: if you owned a Campbelli, wouldn't you love it to be just that and nothing else? To me that would be a real treat.
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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 06-03-2013, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Triangulum View Post
It's really not nonsense, Just not the answer you were looking for.

There really is no reason other then selfishness when it comes to hybridizing, especially in this sense. It's an on going battle trying to educate the under-educated, there is a small community who try to keep the authenticity of these snakes pure.

Of course I am nobody to you, but from a hobbyists spespective I would beg for anybody thinking of doing such a thing, is to lable the hatchlings as Hybrids, In BOLD, RED and Underlined to buyers. But If I had my way, I wouldn't even tempt the selfish parties.

Not looking to argue, just doing my duties, shall we say.

Scott
And yet you own/owned Bengal Cats which are hybrids themselves.

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 09-03-2013, 04:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triangulum View Post
It's really not nonsense, Just not the answer you were looking for.

There really is no reason other then selfishness when it comes to hybridizing, especially in this sense. It's an on going battle trying to educate the under-educated, there is a small community who try to keep the authenticity of these snakes pure.

Of course I am nobody to you, but from a hobbyists spespective I would beg for anybody thinking of doing such a thing, is to lable the hatchlings as Hybrids, In BOLD, RED and Underlined to buyers. But If I had my way, I wouldn't even tempt the selfish parties.

Not looking to argue, just doing my duties, shall we say.

Scott

I totally agree Scott. After reading his initial post and all the objections afterwards he is obviously lost at sea and doesn't know any better. The irony is that all of his uncertainties about what he actually even has to begin with are the the very reasons not to make more unidentifiable mutts to be sprinkled around throughout the hobby. Like the UK has an overabundance of uncompromised genuine triangulum stock there to begin with.

Yeah, more unidentifiable crosses are just what the hobby needs! He also fails to understand that whatever the crossed offspring, and their offspring's offspring will ever be bred with down the line will do nothing but dilute more stock as they exchange hands and are bred with "whatever" down the road.........geeez.

It's the same iresponsible mentality others have here too. There was just another endless thread on this over on KS. This guys so-called "reasoning" sounds just like Davis or Mesozoic does over here. Those guys couldn't "think" their way out of a wet paper bag if their life depended on it..LOL!

Check out this long and winding hybrid thread. I don't even have enough energy or the will for doing it all over again here too.

Anyway, the good reasons not to do it are all right here in the link below. So are the absurd pseudo-justifications some douches claim it doesn't matter....

Grab some buttered popcorn and enjoy the fireworks show.

Kingsnake.com - Herpforum - Subspecies



cheers, ~Doug
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