[intravenous]

I've read articles saying that Guyana and Surinam boas are in fact exactly the same. Coming from a biological and evolutionary background, I find this very easy to believe since there are no barriers separating Guyana and Surinam (they border each other) so therefore there would have been no way (or reason) for the boas to evolve differences.

So, if in the future, I was to breed a Guyana boa to a Surinam boa would I be correct in just calling the babies Surinam (or Guyana if I chose?)?

There is an article here which might be of interest:

Go to http://www.boa-constrictors.com/com/com.html, click on "Boa c. constrictor" from the left menu, click on "Guyana" or "Surinam" from the menu at the top and then click on the "Now it has become a certainty..." link at the top of the page.


What do you think?

 

[gaz]

the boas of Suriname and Guyane are exactly the same animals,not only that but the exporters in Suriname and Guyana are all brothers and exchange animals back and forth to make up the numbers on their shippments therefore any locality data on these animals must be regarded as extremely suspect,even if you go out there and collect your own and therefore have good data,the snakes actually belong to the exporters until they arrive with you,in the meantime they will be subject to the same swapping around as any other,another problem is that your animals may be subject to further theft and substitution in miami, a friend of mine and myself once tried to import a local of B.c.c from an island in the Essquibo river in Guyana,we got the animals to the exporter ok,they were like any other guyana B.c.c but the ground colour was almost pure white and they only occurred on one 4 mile long island,unfortunately they were exchanged at Miami and were subsequently seen for sale on the internet at $32,000 each,doubly unfortunate as my Japanese clients were already ordering at around the same price,so anyways Suriname/Guyanan are interchangeable
regards gaz

 

[bjherp]

the boas of Suriname and Guyane are exactly the same animals,

Not so,

we keep both Surinam & Guyanan Red Tail species and there is definatly a difference, despite having the same latin name B.c.c.

Looking at the both animals together it is obvious to see the difference, the Guyanan has a longer thinner head than the Surinam, and there is a definate colour difference.

The Guyanan have a more silver background with dark crimson markings and much more pronounced widows peaks.

The Surinam tends to have a more tan background and lighter red markings to the tail. Widows peaks no where near as well pronouced.

It is 12 years + since i got mine and things have changed in this time.

we do have photo's of both species in our gallery,

see

http://www.reptilekeeping.net/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=22

Guyanan

or

Surinam.

One final point, the Guyanans have been a pain in the ass to breed and i have had very limited sucess (or none), the Surinam on the other hand has been problem free.

Despite what is said they are definatly two different species.

Jerry Cole

 

[intravenous]

How do you know that the difference between yours isn't just down to the individuals though?

Like all British people are the same species and come from the same place but you get a heap of variation (hair colour, weight, height...even breeding habits :roll: ).


I know not all B.C.C. are the same...but I would have thought the Surinam and Guyana B.C.C.'s would be the same because they come from exactly the same area and so must interbreed.

 

[bjherp]

All three Guyanan red tails all have the same look and markings, compared to the 12 Suriname's who have their own look & characteristics

I'm not saying that there is massive genetic differences if any, however there is definate type locality difference in my animals.

Look at the images in the gallery and make your own decision. In the more recent years as importing snakes etc from parts of the world has become more commercial things have got more confusing for the buyer.

How many times have you seen Common Boas B.c.i sold as red tails? in therory they are the same species but all have their own look and characteristics.

However all of it is fairly irrelevent in captivity breedings nowadays with all the crossing and colour morphs within each sub-species.

Regards

 

[Dan]

I'd suggest all your "guyana" looks the same but different to your "suriname" because they are lumped together in pens containing animals that all look the same whether they are from the same place or not.

EDIT - sorry, the above is seriously confusing

 

[intravenous]

Since they are bordering countries there must be interbreeding going on over the border though and the snakes won't recognise that its two different countries: they will travel between the two.

Maybe theres a compromise of explanations? The snakes that live around the border must be the exact same animal but as you get to the far sides of each country there might be genetic differences that give the animals different appearances from each other?

I'm not saying you're wrong, its obvious you have a lot more snake keeping experience and knowledge but I just find it a bit weird from an evolutionary point of view.

 

[gaz]

would think it more likely to be a North/South thing with animals being collected near the brazillian border or actually in brazil as happens with amazon basin etb's rather than being a suriname/guyana thing with the cross border swapping that goes on its impossible to say where they originate from,the exporters were quite happy to arrange for venuzuelan animals to come out of Guyana with Guyanan CITES so who can tell where each animal comes from, i take your point though that within the area concerned and disregarding the official borders there are many inter species differences and this applies to corallus caninus/hortulanus as well as boa constrictors
regards gaz

 

[bjherp]

Since they are bordering countries there must be interbreeding going on over the border though and the snakes won't recognise that its two different countries: they will travel between the two.

I'm not saying you're wrong, its obvious you have a lot more snake keeping experience and knowledge but I just find it a bit weird from an evolutionary point of view.

There would be interbreeding going on between bordering countries, however to say that they are the exactly the same is not correct. You would get regional variation according to habitat / type locality.

Classing them both as the same would be like classing a Liverpudlian and Mancunian as the same. But try telling them that.

It's either a pretty boa or not.

We will try taking some close up shots over the next few days that show the distinct differences.

 

[intravenous]

So if I ever did breed a Guyana with a Surinam would it be considered a mutt snake?

If I ever bred I'd quite like to keep the species pure, but its confusing with all the border possibilities.

 

[Scoffa]

red tail boas

Like all British people are the same species and come from the same place but you get a heap of variation (hair colour, weight, height...even breeding habits :roll: ).

Not strictly true m8 we have been invaded by Romans and Vikings and God knows who else.