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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi all,

I am going to get a pair of red tails (genuine BCCs). mainly just to have as pets but want the option to breed them maybe once or twice. how important is it that they are both from the same locality, if i do decide i want to breed. How well do the babies of different localities come out compared to from the same? not really looking to make money out of it btw.
 

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From your previous post, and the one above I gather you are seeking more to have a pure bloodline rather than species. Based on that I would have thought that having a male and female from the same locality would be beneficial to achieve this.

Good luck in finding a pure natural BCC's that doesn't contain any morphs or crossed with BI some generations back.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
From your previous post, and the one above I gather you are seeking more to have a pure bloodline rather than species. Based on that I would have thought that having a male and female from the same locality would be beneficial to achieve this.

Good luck in finding a pure natural BCC's that doesn't contain any morphs or crossed with BI some generations back.
Thank you haha. Not necessarily pure bloodline but ideally no BCI cross, but i didnt realise pure BCCs are kinda rare in the UK (having only kept and bred corn snakes, king snakes and balls). perhaps i'll just try to find two pretty redtails (which should be doable) and not focus to much on subspecies and no BCI mixed in.
 

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Thank you haha. Not necessarily pure bloodline but ideally no BCI cross, but i didnt realise pure BCCs are kinda rare in the UK (having only kept and bred corn snakes, king snakes and balls). perhaps i'll just try to find two pretty redtails (which should be doable) and not focus to much on subspecies and no BCI mixed in.
Pure bcc are pretty rare in the uk, I managed to get a nice Guyana male last year, trying to find a decent female for him is pretty hard, I don't want to cross a Suriname with a Guyana, even tho there both bcc or bc now, I know they probably would in the wild as there pretty close in locality, it would be a shame to mix them and would be worth less anyway
. Remember bcc are slower growing than imperata types and females mature about 5/6yrs rather 3/4 yrs

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Pure bcc are pretty rare in the uk, I managed to get a nice Guyana male last year, trying to find a decent female for him is pretty hard, I don't want to cross a Suriname with a Guyana, even tho there both bcc or bc now, I know they probably would in the wild as there pretty close in locality, it would be a shame to mix them and would be worth less anyway
. Remember bcc are slower growing than imperata types and females mature about 5/6yrs rather 3/4 yrs

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yeah i'm finding that out haha. Where did you get your male from? do they have others?
yeah would seem a shame to get a pure BCC of a particular locality and then mix them.
Thinking more and more of just finding a pretty red tail from a good breeder rather than a certified pure BCC.
The slower growth doesn't bother me i wouldnt be looking to breed much and not for a good few years anyway, thanks though.
 

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I've written this before when people bring up the subject of finding / owning true red tails, or true BCC....

30-40 years ago it was easy to find BCC and BCI (as it was then before commons were predesignated BI). The traits of a BCC, such as the bat wing markings, colouration, and more importantly the scale counts clearly identified the difference between the two. Also everything was pretty much natural colouration and patterning, and you could get some really cracking deep port red or letterbox red tails.

The main issue people had was true BCC tended to grow larger than common BCIs and whilst still attractive lacked the cleaner defined and colourful markings of BCC, so people started to cross them in a bid to get the traits of BCC in a BCI package. However what tended to happen was that you then got BCC with traits from BCI as well. Then people started doing the same with the smaller island sub-species, the idea that a small 5' hog island or clay's boa that looked like a miniature red tail would be so appealing that it made sense to do so... but then the gene pool became really messed up.

As you know, morphs have dominated the past two decades, and traits such as speckling, moustaches marking, crucifix markings, have all been altered through selective breeding of various morph and bloodlines. Now you can get a boa that has a nice clean belly with no speckling, no cross on its head, bat wing saddles all down its back, bright white lining of deep wine red triangles on its tail. The scale count is neither BI or BCI.... (the difference used to be a good 20 or more between them).

BCC
scale counts - 75 to 95 dorsal rows.
227 to 250 ventrals.
49 to 62 subcaudals.


BCI
scale counts - 56 to 79 dorsal rows.
225 to 253 ventrals.
47 to 65 subcaudals.

However, it's also been proven that some regional BCC's don't always exhibit some of the original traits such as the bat wing / widow spikes. Ian Kerr is a forum member who has a stunning collection of boa's, with know bloodlines. Here is an image of a Peruvian red tail



Not a bat wing in sight......

Andy (user name brothrops ) gives a further example



But just to show how selective breeding (and possible crossing to get the traits) have a look at this image found on a google search



No crucifix on the head, no "eyebrow" markings on the head, virtually no saddles to speak of, no speckling, very clean salmon body, and brilliant red tail markings on a bright white background..... so diverse from the BCC's that were offered for sale a various reptile shows back in the 90's

If you want something that is a true BCC, with a know bloodline then drop Ian or Andy a PM as see if they have any breeding projects in the pipeline, or if not, I'm sure they could put you in the right direction
 

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I've written this before when people bring up the subject of finding / owning true red tails, or true BCC....

30-40 years ago it was easy to find BCC and BCI (as it was then before commons were predesignated BI). The traits of a BCC, such as the bat wing markings, colouration, and more importantly the scale counts clearly identified the difference between the two. Also everything was pretty much natural colouration and patterning, and you could get some really cracking deep port red or letterbox red tails.

The main issue people had was true BCC tended to grow larger than common BCIs and whilst still attractive lacked the cleaner defined and colourful markings of BCC, so people started to cross them in a bid to get the traits of BCC in a BCI package. However what tended to happen was that you then got BCC with traits from BCI as well. Then people started doing the same with the smaller island sub-species, the idea that a small 5' hog island or clay's boa that looked like a miniature red tail would be so appealing that it made sense to do so... but then the gene pool became really messed up.

As you know, morphs have dominated the past two decades, and traits such as speckling, moustaches marking, crucifix markings, have all been altered through selective breeding of various morph and bloodlines. Now you can get a boa that has a nice clean belly with no speckling, no cross on its head, bat wing saddles all down its back, bright white lining of deep wine red triangles on its tail. The scale count is neither BI or BCI.... (the difference used to be a good 20 or more between them).

BCC
scale counts - 75 to 95 dorsal rows.
227 to 250 ventrals.
49 to 62 subcaudals.


BCI
scale counts - 56 to 79 dorsal rows.
225 to 253 ventrals.
47 to 65 subcaudals.

However, it's also been proven that some regional BCC's don't always exhibit some of the original traits such as the bat wing / widow spikes. Ian Kerr is a forum member who has a stunning collection of boa's, with know bloodlines. Here is an image of a Peruvian red tail

image

Not a bat wing in sight......

Andy (user name brothrops ) gives a further example

image

But just to show how selective breeding (and possible crossing to get the traits) have a look at this image found on a google search

image

No crucifix on the head, no "eyebrow" markings on the head, virtually no saddles to speak of, no speckling, very clean salmon body, and brilliant red tail markings on a bright white background..... so diverse from the BCC's that were offered for sale a various reptile shows back in the 90's

If you want something that is a true BCC, with a know bloodline then drop Ian or Andy a PM as see if they have any breeding projects in the pipeline, or if not, I'm sure they could put you in the right direction
Really well put malcom.
There definitely hard to come by.
As malcom said there's plenty of true bcc with out the peaks, my forum friend in the states has a really nice venuzwalen bcc and that doesn't have them either, but them Peruvian bcc are just outstanding

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I need a BCC in my life.

Just curious, are they known to hybridise with BCI's in the wild ? or is this not possible due to location etc?
 
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I need a BCC in my life.



Just curious, are they known to hybridise with BCI's in the wild ? or is this not possible due to location etc?
They really are nice boas, I love my Guyana
I'd be very surprised if they didn't on occasions as there in the same locality as most imperata boas

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They really are nice boas, I love my Guyana
I'd be very surprised if they didn't on occasions as there in the same locality as most imperata boas

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Your Boa's are incredible!
I'm still struggling to tell the difference between the localities but so far love the Suriname & Guyana.
 
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I need a BCC in my life.

Just curious, are they known to hybridise with BCI's in the wild ? or is this not possible due to location etc?
I would have thought that on the fringes where their area's overlap it's quite possible. In fact it occurs with most snakes of the same family where their regions overlap. Corn snakes for example will breed with other N. American rat snakes, but in the wild its probably fairly rare as normally there will be an abundance of other Corn snakes in the area, and the same for boa's.

To show you what a mess the hobby is in with regards to captive bred boa's here is a couple of pictures of mine. A jungle pastel Boa Imperator, but with a lot of BCC traits.





Lovely pink salmon flanks, "eyebrows" on the head, bat wing saddles all the way down his back, and lovely light red triangles outlined in white on his tail... but he was sold as a BI, and I have no reason not to think otherwise as even a scale count won't prove otherwise. Regardless of the species, he's a cracking looking snake with a very laid back behaviour....
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I've written this before when people bring up the subject of finding / owning true red tails, or true BCC....

30-40 years ago it was easy to find BCC and BCI (as it was then before commons were predesignated BI). The traits of a BCC, such as the bat wing markings, colouration, and more importantly the scale counts clearly identified the difference between the two. Also everything was pretty much natural colouration and patterning, and you could get some really cracking deep port red or letterbox red tails.

The main issue people had was true BCC tended to grow larger than common BCIs and whilst still attractive lacked the cleaner defined and colourful markings of BCC, so people started to cross them in a bid to get the traits of BCC in a BCI package. However what tended to happen was that you then got BCC with traits from BCI as well. Then people started doing the same with the smaller island sub-species, the idea that a small 5' hog island or clay's boa that looked like a miniature red tail would be so appealing that it made sense to do so... but then the gene pool became really messed up.

As you know, morphs have dominated the past two decades, and traits such as speckling, moustaches marking, crucifix markings, have all been altered through selective breeding of various morph and bloodlines. Now you can get a boa that has a nice clean belly with no speckling, no cross on its head, bat wing saddles all down its back, bright white lining of deep wine red triangles on its tail. The scale count is neither BI or BCI.... (the difference used to be a good 20 or more between them).

BCC
scale counts - 75 to 95 dorsal rows.
227 to 250 ventrals.
49 to 62 subcaudals.


BCI
scale counts - 56 to 79 dorsal rows.
225 to 253 ventrals.
47 to 65 subcaudals.

However, it's also been proven that some regional BCC's don't always exhibit some of the original traits such as the bat wing / widow spikes. Ian Kerr is a forum member who has a stunning collection of boa's, with know bloodlines. Here is an image of a Peruvian red tail

image

Not a bat wing in sight......

Andy (user name brothrops ) gives a further example

image

But just to show how selective breeding (and possible crossing to get the traits) have a look at this image found on a google search

image

No crucifix on the head, no "eyebrow" markings on the head, virtually no saddles to speak of, no speckling, very clean salmon body, and brilliant red tail markings on a bright white background..... so diverse from the BCC's that were offered for sale a various reptile shows back in the 90's

If you want something that is a true BCC, with a know bloodline then drop Ian or Andy a PM as see if they have any breeding projects in the pipeline, or if not, I'm sure they could put you in the right direction


Thanks a lot thats really clear. I kinda pieced together some of what you mean from other forum posts but nowhere has it been so well explained, cheers.

interesting how people don't like the size, i have a dumerils boa which is almost 7' and i much prefer handling it and other larger boas than say royals or something. I guess when they get to 9' and more then that goes too far haha

I will message them both and see what they say. Hopefully I'll find one, I'll let you guys know when i do!
 

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I forgot to add that my boa (5 yrs old) measures just a shade over 8', which would (IMO) suggest that somewhere down the generations a BCC was introduced to the mix, as male BI tend to average 6-7'

When you do find what you're looking for please document it. And name the source as it will help for future reference as we can point anyone who asks similar questions in future to this thread
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I forgot to add that my boa (5 yrs old) measures just a shade over 8', which would (IMO) suggest that somewhere down the generations a BCC was introduced to the mix, as male BI tend to average 6-7'

When you do find what you're looking for please document it. And name the source as it will help for future reference as we can point anyone who asks similar questions in future to this thread
He looks great, nice size too.
Yeah of course, I will do!
 
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