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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
You decide, this is a thread from a competitor forum:

Please note D.Of.E is now known as DEFRA.

The crimes of the RSPB and Animal Health go back many years. See below.
The Watchdog programme and setting Sweetman up by DofE and the RSPB.

Is anyone really save from this on top of strict liability and all the money and power behind the police and the RSPA. Watch youtube before you make your judgements. There is a lot that can occur behind closed doors.
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file 1 YouTube - rspb and defra setting up a bird breeder part 1
file 2 YouTube - rspb/defra setting up a bird breeder part 2
file 3 YouTube - rspb/defra setting up a bird breeder part added footage


Dofe Setting Sweetman Up - Livefood UK Forum

What are your views on this?

Rory Matier
Pro Keepers Lobby
 

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Interesting viewing.

I know its pretty old, but Although I am not into birds (unless un feathered !) I do recall something about this

With the recent events surrounding the home office and immigration, and the funding of different political parties, one has to wonder if anything has changed.

Is it now, as it seemed back in the 80's.. where if you have the cash, nothing is impossible, even to the extent of corruption and intimidation.

More recently the event surrounding the illegal seizure of primates and the 'postponed' return of the same still point to some kind of underhanded practices.

It is for these reasons the whole industry has to be above board, to have procedures and to follow them openly. As an industry, we have nothing to fear from 'doing the right thing' from providing the right conditions.

But

We must do so as one. not bit by bit so stories of mistreatment and cruelity still hit the head lines, we must support each other and stand up for our rights, not those rights that may be thrust upon us.

As a final thought, you may ask who would want to re enact a plant such as that featured.

How about a group of people who openly refuse to work with real experts in the field, who demand a break in communications between local ops and local keepers when discovered, who cover up thier other interests, who get power trips over uniforms, who have proven links to criminal activity.

Oh, and have over 200 million quid hanging around.

So, who would want to show the industry in a bad light?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Valid points PJ,

Corruption is rife, as indeed are all the others nasties this thread has referred to and others make a constant reference to.

I am currently looking at this type of thing at present for a number of different avenues, and l have said to the poster that PKL would indeed offer what support we could.

With the new identity of PKl, we of course can do that now, for the Lobby does look at these affairs, whilst the Alliance will look at what directly affects the keeper and the two shall unite somewhere along the path.

This may be birds, there are others on primates, but in reality, it is everywhere.

It is simply a case of not allowing any party to get the upper hand on this ever, and that alone is the hardest part.

R
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Apart from the ones that have died I suspect they are being held in Zoo and Bird Collections throughout Europe.
I'm not sure if this is the best article to use Rory or where you are gong with this, the guy had been convicted of bird smuggling no less that three times, smuggling extremely endangered species into the UK. If you are going to use him in your 'argument' then I feel you will be playing into the anti's hands.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Indeed True Ray,

I too had a version of events of Mr Sissen himself, however certain documents that have come to me of late have allowed me to look into this story and others with questioning eyes.

The questions about the whereabouts of some of the birds and why so many were allowed to perish is l believe an interesting one.

Whilst l do not pertain to embark on some kind of crusade with this, other information leads me to think and ask, was everything handled efficiently and correctly?

And l do not think it is simply a case of playing into the antis hands, but asking questions in the first place.

There are always two sides to every coin.

I am looking at the other side of just one coin in a purse at present.

I feel sure that there are other readers out 'there' at present who may hold different views to this event and others of the time.

As to where l am going with this?

Just collecting views and opinions for another topic l am working on.

No campaign, just as stated, views.

But as said, you have raised a good and genuine point, and not one that is too far off how l originally felt, so thankyou for your opinion, it has been noted.

Cheers

Rory
 

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Indeed True Ray,

I too had a version of events of Mr Sissen himself, however certain documents that have come to me of late have allowed me to look into this story and others with questioning eyes.

The questions about the whereabouts of some of the birds and why so many were allowed to perish is l believe an interesting one.

Whilst l do not pertain to embark on some kind of crusade with this, other information leads me to think and ask, was everything handled efficiently and correctly?

And l do not think it is simply a case of playing into the antis hands, but asking questions in the first place.

There are always two sides to every coin.

I am looking at the other side of just one coin in a purse at present.

I feel sure that there are other readers out 'there' at present who may hold different views to this event and others of the time.

As to where l am going with this?

Just collecting views and opinions for another topic l am working on.

No campaign, just as stated, views.

But as said, you have raised a good and genuine point, and not one that is too far off how l originally felt, so thankyou for your opinion, it has been noted.

Cheers

Rory
I very much doubt everything was handled efficiently and correctly, it very seldom does where people are concerned. I'm not also sure that the birds were 'allowed' to perish. From what I can gather, and I am no avian expert so could be wrong, is that parrots are very susceptible to stress and the trauma of being captured when seized, the move to new locations and new surroundings may have beena large contributing factor in their deaths. PArt of the inefficient and incorrect handling no doubt.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
You are quite right, as a species, they are subject to stress and that should they have been incorrectly handled, there is an excellent chance that they would have perished due to that very same stress.

I am currently in the process of handling documents from that time and more recent events - which do present themselves questions to me.

The 'allowed' to perish line is one such line in the documents l am researching and has also been used in that website link.

But there are issues raised with all the documents l am reviewing, which do not so much as concentrate on Harry Sissen, but of a number of different events from the mid 80's to the new millenium.

It is an interesting subject, and like you l am not an avian expert nor ever likely to be one. But they deal with keepers' rights, and that is the topic that does interest me.

Thanks again

Rory
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I think what interests me most and is fairly significant here, is that even if the Parrot is subject to stress, this was the RSPB handling these events, and l was under the impression that this society is supposed to be sensitive to bird species and as such why were they not?

The fact is that yes, perhaps birds died as a result of this, but if you are a society that is dedicated to a species needs and requirements why was the handling not dealt with - correctly?

As to keepers rights, this was a very controversial case and it was concluded with Mr Sissens prosecution. Now albeit he was found guilty of bird smuggling of endangered species, but surely even he had a genuine passion for his birds, and as such he still should have been awarded the rights to knowing that his animals had been treated correctly and received the right attentions - despite a mans' guilt for an offence, does he lose or is the right waivered to still care about the animals in question?

A loosely similiar situation is the EPS legislation - IF a prosecution goes ahead on a private keeper who has a species that is not licenced, they are as such presmed guilty - now if those animals that have been in their care for 'for however long' are killed, do they lose or waiver the rights to still care? For in the eyes of the law, those unlicenced keepers are also guilty.

And this is the point, l am interested in, keepers are attached to their species, it is their right as a responsible keeper to care, how far do we have to travel before the regulators decide that they have not lost sight of certain things - in this case both the keeper and the species have rights and as such we should be continually addressing this - should we not?

Rory
 

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Continuing along these lines.................

Should we be questioning more of what goes on?

Harry Sissen, the other side of the story

What did happen to all of these birds??
A lot of the birds went to private collections and a few zoo's where none of them had any skills or experience in breeding these types of birds.
What was rather ironic was some of his birds went to some of the people who gave evidence against his, how convenient was that then.

On the day of the raid the birds were bamboozelled into cages fit only for budgies they were dropping eggs as they were being shipped out, what were the experts or lack of them on the day thinking, boy were some birds lost that day.

SEUK.
 

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Interesting viewing.

I know its pretty old, but Although I am not into birds (unless un feathered !) I do recall something about this

With the recent events surrounding the home office and immigration, and the funding of different political parties, one has to wonder if anything has changed.

Is it now, as it seemed back in the 80's.. where if you have the cash, nothing is impossible, even to the extent of corruption and intimidation.

More recently the event surrounding the illegal seizure of primates and the 'postponed' return of the same still point to some kind of underhanded practices.

It is for these reasons the whole industry has to be above board, to have procedures and to follow them openly. As an industry, we have nothing to fear from 'doing the right thing' from providing the right conditions.

But

We must do so as one. not bit by bit so stories of mistreatment and cruelity still hit the head lines, we must support each other and stand up for our rights, not those rights that may be thrust upon us.

As a final thought, you may ask who would want to re enact a plant such as that featured.

How about a group of people who openly refuse to work with real experts in the field, who demand a break in communications between local ops and local keepers when discovered, who cover up thier other interests, who get power trips over uniforms, who have proven links to criminal activity.

Oh, and have over 200 million quid hanging around.

So, who would want to show the industry in a bad light?
Hi there

Having known this person for quite some years now, I can honestly say he is not that kind of man, he was totally dedicated to his field of expertise even going into dept with his bank and going hungry in order of caring for his birds, we could call him a victim of his own sucsess,

On the mention of that spare 200 million, I believe that the parties involved were simply flexing their muscles regardless so as not to loose their funding with a bit of jealousy thrown in from other parties.

there are lots of unanswered questions which might come out if a public enquiry was brought forward, the case is still on-going, we must helphim before he grows too old and passes away,

Questions like,

Who should have been prosecuted for the loss of all those rare species when the birds dropped their eggs in those tiny cages, that is caring for the rare species, I think not,
they could have easily left the birds their under scrutiny until such times the chicks were fledged, Harry would have looked after them regardless of what the outcome was going to be.

why did they need armed gaurds SWAT type guys to break into his house and confront him wjile he was in bed to take control of the situation, even drug dealers get prefferential treatment,

Did you know that his daughter who was preagnant at the time and was roughly handlled by the police, that she lost her child through the stress and damage cause when she was knocked to the floor, a bit over enthusiastic would say,

There are many unasnwered questions that if looked into thouroughly might just justify a public enquiry of such a landmark case.

SEUK.
 

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If we all club together with a pattition to parliament for Harry Sissen then someone would have to look into things, Hague was missused in court on the day, maybe he might want to put his point across instead of sitting on his back side and looking in from a distance.

SEUK
 

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Hi there

Having known this person for quite some years now, I can honestly say he is not that kind of man, he was totally dedicated to his field of expertise even going into dept with his bank and going hungry in order of caring for his birds, we could call him a victim of his own sucsess,

On the mention of that spare 200 million, I believe that the governmental parties involved were simply flexing their muscles regardless, so as not to loose their funding with a bit of jealousy and total ignorance by the peolpe involved thrown in.

There are lots of unanswered questions which might come out if a public enquiry was brought forward, the case is still on-going, we must help him before he grows too old and passes away, which might suit them to down the ground.

Questions like,

Who should have been prosecuted for the loss of all those rare species when the birds were dropping their eggs in those tiny cages when ti customs guys were taking them away, cn anyone imagine just how many rare species were lost on tha day, is that caring for the rare species, I think not,
they could have easily left the birds their under scrutiny until such times the chicks were fledged, Harry would have looked after them regardless of what the outcome was going to be.

why did they need armed gaurds SWAT type guys to break into his house and confront him while he was in bed to take control of the situation, even drug dealers get prefferential treatment,

Did you know that his daughter who was preagnant at the time and was roughly handlled by the police, that she lost her child through the stress and damage cause when she was knocked to the floor, a bit over enthusiastic would say,

There are many unasnwered questions that if looked into thouroughly might just justify a public enquiry of such a landmark case.

Now is the time to act, so this kind of thing does not happen again.

SEUK.
......
 

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If we all club together with a pattition to parliament for Harry Sissen then someone would have to look into things, Hague was missused in court on the day, maybe he might want to put his point across instead of sitting on his back side and looking in from a distance.

SEUK
Did or did he not smuggle extremely rare birds? It's a simple question. Unfortunately. it looks like he did. He can take his case to the court of appeal if he wants to but I think they had him bang to rights.
 
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