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Discussion Starter #1
are these really rare as i seen a trio of them for sale in a shop near me and it said they are sought after,cb in usa
 
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From memory it is not so much the colours but the name of the breeder.I know they have some amazing beardies in their collection so you should be looking at good quality breeding stock if they are fire and ice babies
 

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Discussion Starter #3
yeahh it said they will be ready to breed in a few months it was £590 for the trio,dont know if thats expensive,they had really nice red colouration on them
 

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They ARE in high demand, I've heard about a few people who have paid extortionate prices to have them imported from America only to lose them within months.

From what I understand, the really high coloured beardies from Fire and Ice are bred by a woman called Terri, who has inbred over many generations to get the colours out faster than everyone else, they have a LOT of health problems from what I understand, and many die, do a search for her and the company name and read the complaints for yourself.

Apparently she is aware of the health implications and can be somewhat unco-operative. I beleive the law now states in the US that bloodlines have to be recorded, like in pedigree dogs, but this is (from what I've read and been told by beardie owners in the UK AND the USA) not something she pays very much attention to. This was one example:

Terri Sommella Fire and Ice Dragons -- Nightmare - <FONT COLOR=RED>Board of Inquiry®</FONT>

Bearded Dragon . org Forums :: View topic - fire and ice dragons

And while I appreciate that you should form your own opinion and cant take any one person's account as gospel, I have read so many different versions of the same story that it is more than enough to discourage me from lining anyone's pockets to fund the in-breeding of those poor little beardies.

Have a good look around and you should find there are plenty more sources of the same type of info. :)
 

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Discussion Starter #5
well these ones have been in the shop for a month as not many people have 600 to splash out on lizards,they looked in really good health to me
 

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At the end of the day if YOU think they are worth it then they are.

I'd suggest though the fact that you have to ask in the first place tells me you don't think they are
 

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From what I'm reading on the thread link above (I'm on page 48 at the mo, just flicking through), her animals tend also to have a higher than normal rate of coccidia (coccidia is common and helps for a healthy immune system in young animals), but can cause major problems and is expensive to treat, the buyers within the thread also report pinworms, pinworms can be treated with a wormer just like any other kind of worm, but if I were buying from a keeper with 15 years experience and was claiming they owned all parents going back 6 generations, I'd expect them to be wormed and have a clean bill of health on arrival.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
At the end of the day if YOU think they are worth it then they are.

I'd suggest though the fact that you have to ask in the first place tells me you don't think they are

im not saying im gonna buy them,ive just never come across these before and was checking if they was over priced or not.dont think the mrs would be happy if i bought them and what size viv would you need to house 3 adults in
 

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I agree that if whoever DOES buy them thinks he is getting his money's worth then he should go for it (or she !!), its just personal to me that if I buy something I know its in good health, though i guess that kind of information is limited in most cases unless you're buying privately.

I wouldnt buy Fire and Ice animals, however pretty or healthy they looked unless it had a vets certificate, based on the information available. But thats just my opinion, £600 works out at £200 a lizard, and I'm aware that you can get some really attractive morphs from great bloodlines that originate mainly from mainland Europe including the UK, particularly Holland for a lot less.
 

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Who ever buys them in my opinion is a mug,

nice colours yes,,, Positive thing

gentics very weak,,,, bad thing
Overpriced,,,,,bad thing
bad rep,,,,,bad thing

can get other reps just as nice for less money that aren't genetically [email protected] from other breeders who dont have half the internet written about their poor service and lack of customer skills and also inbreeding.

If you want high colour morphs, look at Holland maybe, or even in the UK,, plenty of high colours about that are not from USA. For Sale boards have them on, I know as i am selling some, lol.

Some people i am sure are happy with their purchases, I personally wouldn't have one if it was foc
 

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Discussion Starter #11
any 1 else had any dealings with fire and ice,as oppinions are mixed
 

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Discussion Starter #13
ive seen some sandfire beardies for sale also,are these of a certain breeder or just a term for the morph
 

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lol terri seems like a psycho but i've seen these dragons kept healthily somewhere, though it may have just been the womans own website lol in the past, it was way back to when i first looked into getting a reptile.
 

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I am a long way away from knowing everything,, cheeky monkey.

Sandfire bearded dragons originate from the sandfire dragon ranch in the USA.
They do specialise in beardies with red and orange colours but the name comes from the place more so than the colour i believe and people have kinda adopted the name to go with redish orange beardies.

Hypo's you can say is a morph and can have come from anywhere, where as you cant have a sandfire thats not got at least parents or some part of its family tree coming from the ranch.

Remember you will not be able to see all genetic problems on the outside.

Being a breeder myself, i have been in you position before, the citrus is an incredible colour as are some of the reds and snows, so i did my research before spending that sort of money.

I have read the board many times over and have heard first hand stories from people who have bought them,, too many occasions for this to be worth my while even if they were free.....

If you want USA imports, go for Dragons den, If you want high yellows search out some hypo yellows,,
You can find what you are after without taking that risk if you ask me from very respected breeders for much less money, seems a no brainer to me.


and mixed opinions,, dont really agree with that, some may seem healthy in the flesh,, but they will still be the same as all the others inside.

some live, some dont,, but what goes on goes on and its more a case of some know what goes on and others dont rather than mixed opinions.

sorry for ranting and not aimed at anyone other than the cause which is none of you, But i cannot express how mad it makes me that people mess about with genetics so much in this way to produce such nice colours admittedly but at the same time such weak bloodlines as so much inbreeding has been done, just to make a few quid. and when issues crop up,, the aftercare seems shocking from a so called rescpected breeder, lol

That is a business rather than a passion and when you are talking about live animals, Its not on.
 
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