Reptile Forums banner
1 - 20 of 32 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
56 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi again sorry for the silly question does anyone know if I can simply import with a reptile courier from Germany any more?
I would like a couple of scrub pythons bringing in and I have concerns around the rules regarding import nowadays post brexit etc.
Any advice would be very much appreciated
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
144 Posts
Hi again sorry for the silly question does anyone know if I can simply import with a reptile courier from Germany any more?
I would like a couple of scrub pythons bringing in and I have concerns around the rules regarding import nowadays post brexit etc.
Any advice would be very much appreciated
As far as I'm aware, you have to apply for an import license,proving that the import is not on CITES listing, not DWA, unless importer is licensed, and then of course import fees, VAT, and possibly handling charges.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
567 Posts
I am in the same boat .. I put a deposit down for a snake from Germany and he got experience with CITES etc. as he ships to US too - I am not ready to receive it yet so we haven't checked how to do that but here's hoping he knows how ... When I imported snakes pre-Brexit some couriers essentially shipped via air freight (coming from US) so it was essentially same day shipping - quite expensive though as you can imagine.

As far as I am aware though - you don't have to prove they are on CITES because all reptiles now are


Or rather they are covered under CITES now - which makes no sense but you know - BREXIT ...

The import license is mainly required for traders - that was the same back in the day when I imported from US.

What usually happens / happened is that you use a third party that deals with paperwork. For instance, I used a licensed reptile shipping company that dealt with all the paperwork.

But to give you an idea - I imported about six ball pythons once in one shipment - that was around 2007 however, and back then I paid about £1100 all in for the handling and shipping from the US. On top of that was import and VAT and of course they charged me both on the shipping cost as well.

As I was breeding high end morphs back then it was still worth it as I was able to get my money back with a couple of sold snakes. For instance, when I imported a Super Lesser I spend like 4k but sold each baby for 2.5k so it was worth it.

But again, that was 10 years ago and I merely compare Germany to UK with US to UK now given Brexit - I might still be full of manure :)

The frustrating bit is that as an individual it is near impossible to find out exactly what is happening. I spend already hours on the phone trying to find out. As I say - some guys tell me they fall under CITES now due to brexit, and when you send them to their own website


That obviously talks about endangered animals, which CITES is, but they just got 0 clue themselves.

Another link to read yourself dizzy:

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
56 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Yeah I know a bit after asking about import from Papua and the cost is what is bothering me for relatively low priced animals.
I’ve emailed a reptile courier will wait and see.
As far as I can make out all it most pythons are considered cites listed now.
It depends on whether the breeder is prepared to do all the silly paperwork to help me out on just a couple of animals.
Tough call and I’m clueless
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
567 Posts
Yea on top of that some snakes require a health certificate. I am not that bothered about the German snake. I loved the look of her and I am not even done with the viv yet. I think when it comes to it I would want to know the full price otherwise I may just look local .
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,950 Posts
As far as I know, based on a thread about bringing stuff back form European shows, there are several options based on the snakes CITES listing. Now I'm not an expert, but based on the discussion the following seems to be relevant as in this case the pythons are appendix ii animals. They will need a vets health certificate, and both an export permit from the exporter and in import permit from you, for each animal. The paperwork must be correct. If there is a spelling mistake on any document there is a risk of the snakes being seized by customs. It will also need transporting by a DEFRA approved courier, or approved shipping company, and the port of entry is limited to just a couple. Import duties and VAT are also payable on the shipment.

It is very confusing.... and I would advise consulting with company that deals with importing livestock who would be able to point you in the right direction.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,244 Posts
Thwres a fair amount of misinformed nonsense on here.
No, not all reptiles are CITES listed.
No, you dont have to prove if a species is CITES or not.
All pythons and boas are Annex B/Appendix II at least. And so therefore you require an I.port permit from the UK and an export permit from the country where it is being sent from.
I'm.not sure where this vets health certificate has come from, as they are not required for reptiles. And has nothing to do with CITES.
There also seems to be a belief that this is all due to Brexit. It isn't. CITES has been around for a long time. All that is different is that the UK is no longer able to have borderless trade with the EU. That's all. And it hasn't suddenly meant that every reptile species is now subject to trade controls under CITES.
You still needed the permits to import from anywhere else in the world. And they apply to EVERYONE, not just "traders"
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
560 Posts
Thwres a fair amount of misinformed nonsense on here.
No, not all reptiles are CITES listed.
No, you dont have to prove if a species is CITES or not.
All pythons and boas are Annex B/Appendix II at least. And so therefore you require an I.port permit from the UK and an export permit from the country where it is being sent from.
I'm.not sure where this vets health certificate has come from, as they are not required for reptiles. And has nothing to do with CITES.
There also seems to be a belief that this is all due to Brexit. It isn't. CITES has been around for a long time. All that is different is that the UK is no longer able to have borderless trade with the EU. That's all. And it hasn't suddenly meant that every reptile species is now subject to trade controls under CITES.
You still needed the permits to import from anywhere else in the world. And they apply to EVERYONE, not just "traders"
Yes basically this.

I recommend calling the CITES offices and asking as they are very helpful and happy to answer questions. They aren't trying to stop trade, they are there to help with the trade of regulated species, and that is what they do, now more than ever.

But yes in short you basically have to apply for export papers from the country of origin and import papers from the UK offices and organise them to pass through a permitted port (Heathrow is the main one people are using at present I believe, most animals are being flown)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,950 Posts
Thwres a fair amount of misinformed nonsense on here.
No, not all reptiles are CITES listed.
No, you dont have to prove if a species is CITES or not.
All pythons and boas are Annex B/Appendix II at least. And so therefore you require an I.port permit from the UK and an export permit from the country where it is being sent from.
I'm.not sure where this vets health certificate has come from, as they are not required for reptiles. And has nothing to do with CITES.
There also seems to be a belief that this is all due to Brexit. It isn't. CITES has been around for a long time. All that is different is that the UK is no longer able to have borderless trade with the EU. That's all. And it hasn't suddenly meant that every reptile species is now subject to trade controls under CITES.
You still needed the permits to import from anywhere else in the world. And they apply to EVERYONE, not just "traders"
I agree that it's not down to Brexit, but it was Brexit that made the movement between EU and UK more complicated and thus falling in line with existing arrangements for importing for other locations outside the EU. The vet / health certification was discussed on the long thread in the build up to D-Day, especially with the old practice of popping over to Hamm etc, purchasing a couple of impulse buys and then bring them back on the ferry....This was discussed at some length at the time, but as to its requirement where importing a couple of pythons are concerned, it may not be needed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
56 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Great adivice and info thank you!
What is the cost of getting these import documents and export documents?
I looked into this a few years ago for imports from Africa and the cost was around £1200.
Just wanting to import a couple of animals.
Would it be worth my while?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
567 Posts
In regards to the health certificate. It is stated in one of the links I posted. Forgot which. There is an ambiguous statement that some animals require a cert.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
560 Posts
Great adivice and info thank you!
What is the cost of getting these import documents and export documents?
I looked into this a few years ago for imports from Africa and the cost was around £1200.
Just wanting to import a couple of animals.
Would it be worth my while?
It varies depending on quantity and of course the country of export. UK Import papers are around £60 if I remember correctly.
As I say best to just contact DEFRA CITES offices and ask them
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,950 Posts
I was bored so did some googling... so don't flame me if this isn't applicable

CITES Permit fees - Import permit - £67

It's all very confusing, especially as links for forms that the GOV site state include reptiles, then take you to a form that list bats and other mammals that could be linked to rabies !! The only suggestion I have is to ring one of the APHA offices and get advice "from the horses mouth" so to speak APHA web site. I've sent an e-mail off asking the question so it can be used as a basis for a sticky thread on RFUK if the mods are in agreement
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
567 Posts
Thanks for checking the cost @Malc - that's the thing - it is confusing and annoying ... Thanks for asking them. It will certainly help people especially once Hamm kicks off again. For now I am put off tbh. As I said earlier - back in the day when I imported from the US it was already really expensive but I made my money back easily. Now I am importing a single snake without the intention to breed and only because I like the look of her.

I am feeling not doing that now and spend the money on the tank instead.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,950 Posts
@Jibbajabba No worries. I'm not holding my breath that the reply will be simple and concise... But hopefully it will help those who are considering importing form the EU, especially with a lot of countries looking at lifting covid constrictions and the possibilities of the big EU shows starting up again.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,244 Posts
Vets health certificates are, as far as I am aware, applicable to mammals only.
It is important that people here start to understand CITES and the COTES Regs. Because if you go to Hamm and bring something back that needs a permit, ALL of the animals you bring back, including non CITES, can be seized.
As long as the law is followed, then there are no problems!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,244 Posts
That's the whole point of this conversation ...
Which has highlighted how much is NOT understood about it all!
So, here is a quick guide:
Firstly, CITES is NOT a conservation treaty but a trade treaty. It was established to enable trade of animals, plants and their derivatives in a sustainable way.
How does it work?
Well, there are (off the top of my head) 172 countries signed up to CITES, which are known as Member Parties. There is a Conference of the Parties held every few years to discuss existing listed species, whether they are on the correct Appendix, and also to propose which species should be added and removed. As a Member Party, each country must introduce domestic legislation to enforce the Treaty. In the UK, this legislation is the Control of Trade in Endangered Species Regulations 1997.
CITES has 3 Appendices, I, II and III. The first two require an export permit from the country where the trade has come from. Appendix I has additional requirements relating to the trade and commercial use of specimens, which I will explain later.
Appendix III is a list of species of interest which are being monitored to assess if trade is impacting on natural populations, whereas the first two are species where trade has been shown to have an impact and so restrictions are in place so that trade can still take place, albeit restricted.
CITES relates to all parts and derivatives of the listed species, not just live specimens.
Every Member must nominate a Scientific Authority and a Management Authority. The latter manages applications for permits while the former conducts the assessments.
In the UK, the Scientific Authority is Royal Botanical Society Kew for plants and the JNCC for animals. APHA, which is a part of DEFRA, is our Management Authority.
Every single permit issued has to be checked first, and will only be granted if the Scientific Authority can make a Non Detriment Finding, in other words the proposed trade will not impact on natural populations of the species being traded. Once this has been made the Management Authority can then issue the permits.
The EU decided to make its own rules. Given that most countries where trade will come from (Africa, Asia, South America) are rife with corruption, the EU introduced an import permit too. This was because in almost every case a detrimental trade could be authorised by paying off the relevant officials. So to import into an EU country, and post Brexit this includes the UK, the importing country must also issue an import permit based on a Non Detriment Finding for the trade. It is only if both parties in the trade provide this that the trade can take place. The EU also changed the lists to Annexes, A to D.
Annex A is all Appendix I species plus a few App II species.
Annex B is all App II species (apart from those elevated to Annex A) and a few App III species.
Annex C is all the rest of the App III species
Annex D is a list of species which the EU has concerns over. It includes some strange listing such as False Water Cobras and Radiated Rat snakes.

The Law

In the UK you need to have an import permit issued by APHA and an export permit from the country you are bringing the specimens in from. These must be completed accurately as any errors will void the entire shipment and leave all specimens liable for seizure.
With Annex A/Appendix I specimens they must be uniquely marked. This is most typically by way of a microchip, the number of which must be recorded on the export and import permits.
Imports can only be brought into the UK via specific ports, details of these can be found on the DEFRA site.
There are then further controls on trade with Annex A/App I specimens.
This means that you can only legally advertise, buy or sell such a specimen if it has a valid Article 10 certificate.

Article 10 Certificates

There is a lot of confusion over these. Firstly you do NOT need one to simply own a specimen.
They are required for commercial use of the specimen. This includes selling, using at events where the owner receives money and disaying for money. So a "reptile encounter" company taking an Indian python or a Herman's tortoise to a party they have been paid to attend would require Article 10 certificates for all Annex A/App I specimens they take for that event.
There are two types of A10, Transaction Specific Certificates (TSC) and Specimen Specific Certificates (SSC).
Genealy, a TSC is issued for the sale of CB hatchlings as they are.often too small to be chipped. The certificate is granted with a condition that the specimen is microchipped when large enough.
A TSC is only valid for the single transaction it was applied for. It CANNOT be used for future commercial gain.
An SSC is used for older specimens that are chipped, and stays with the specimen, so if you buy such an animal with an SSC you do not need to apply for a new one for breeding or to sell on.
You must apply for an A10 when you decide to use the animal for a.commercial purpose. So for breeding, both potential parents must have an A10. The offspring cannot be sold without having an A10 for each one, and these require the A10 numbers from the parent animals as part of the application.

Offences

COTES Regs 1997 creates a number of offences. These are indictable, so can be tried in the Crown Court, and do carry substantial custodial sentences.
It is an offence to sell, buy, offer to sell or keep for sale an Annex A/App I specimens without a valid A10 certificate. Reptile rescues rehoming such specimens for a fee, voluntary or otherwise, are also subject to this.
You can gift such a specimen, which must have NO financial gain. This includes exchanging for other specimens, goods etc. You can download a gifting declaration form from the DEFRA site.

Hopefully this will make CITES clearer. For the full CITES species list, visit the CITES website and download the species checklist. If you do, you will quickly see how confusing some of this all is, as there are some species where trade is restricted based on which population it is. In some species, such as the African Elephant, Nile Crocodile and Saltwater Crocodile, different populations have different restrictions as to what can be traded.

Feel free to ask any questions!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,950 Posts
I've sent an e-mail off asking the question so it can be used as a basis for a sticky thread on RFUK if the mods are in agreement
Well I received a reply.... not really much help.....(as expected) - I've removed the officers name for privacy reasons.

The Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES) EC Regulations 338/97 and 865/2006 (As incorporated in UK law as retained EU law) - Import/(Re-)Export Permit

I can confirm species which are listed on Appendix, I, II, III of CITES requires permit for import to and export/re-export from the UK.

For FED0172 Application form, fees, methods of payment and more licensing information please visit our website: Import or export endangered species: check if you need a CITES permit

Email your application and copy of supporting documents to: [email protected]

Our processing times for CITES applications are 30 days from receipt of a completed application.

With regards to species not listed on the Appendices, as they do not fall with the sphere of CITES permits are not required from the Bristol office.

You may as you mentioned need import health licence, for advice please contact SSC Carlisle – Imports on telephone number 03000 200 301 email [email protected]

I hope the above helps


J*****
CITES Licensing Officer
UK CITES Management Authority
Centre for International Trade – Bristol
So really just confirmation that anyone moving Royals between UK and EU or other countries will need both Import and Export permits, and referrals to websites that we've all visited and left in a confused state.

No confirmation on health certificates, and when you ring the number provided the 6 options really relate to farming issues (such as payments) rather than the ability to talk to a receptionist and get routed through to the right department. The only things it does clarify is the current processing time of applications, and that anything not on the CITES list can be moved permit free.

I've sent a reply to the mail I received asking for clarification or better redirection given the fact that it doesn't really clarify the situation regarding health certification.... But again, it could be some time before I get a reply.... I will of course post up any further information received.
 
1 - 20 of 32 Posts
Top