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Hello - to highlite what i said in the selling section and for more people to see.

Inbreeding is used under strict conditions (with known lineages) to create a new breed/morph but it should not be used extensively as a mean to perpetuate an already existing breed/morph.

Four essential characteristics usually distinguish the origin in the genetic sense of a new breed/morph

1) The Founder effect: A finite number of individuals are chosen to contribute genetic material to found a new and unique population. They may all be quite similar, or they may be widely divergent one from another. What matters is that a finite and sometimes quite small number of individuals are selected from the existing population and set apart so that their genetic material alone forms the gene pool for the new breed/morph.
2) Isolation: If the founder group continues to exchange genetic material at random with the general population, a new breed/morph will not result. Without genetic isolation of the new founder group, the differentiation that creates a new breed/morph cannot take place.
3) Inbreeding. If the founder group is of small or moderate size, such inbreeding cannot help but occur. Even if the founder group should be quite large, ordinarily those who guide the breeding which creates the new breed/morph will find it necessary at some stage to employ a degree of inbreeding, to facilitate the weeding-out of undesired characteristics and the fixation of desired traits.
4) Artificial selection: Inbreeding alone will not serve to fix type characteristics and to eliminate unwanted traits. The breeders must select among the individuals produced in early generations so that only those displaying the desired characteristics are allowed to produce subsequent generations.

Without the four factors of founder effect, isolation, inbreeding and artificial selection, new long standing breeds/morphs ordinarily do not come into existence. These four tools are used to define a new genome which, hopefully, contains only the traits desired by the creators of the new breed/morph and is able to reproduce itself, with its distinguishing characteristics, to a fair degree of stability and consistency.

Once a breed/morph has been created by a breeder/breeders, all efforts must be made to keep track of lineage and undertake responsible breeding. A good breeder can give you the breeding lineage of your snake because he created his snakes by buying snakes with known lineages (e.g. Kathy and Bill Love) and keeping track of their subsequent lineage.

There are four types of breeding:

1) In-breeding

The mating of very close relatives, for example, father to daughter, half-brother to half-sister, brother to sister, mother to son, etc. More precisely, inbreeding is the mating of individuals more closely related than the average of the population from which they come.



Inbreeding intensifies the faults as well as the strong points so considerable discretion must be used in using this technique. In effect, it increases the probability that two copies of any given gene will be identical and derived from the same ancestor. Technically, the animal is homozygous for that gene. The heterozygous animal has some differences in the two copies of the gene.

Inbreeding is measured using the Wright's Coefficient of Inbreeding which was first put forward in the 1920s. This is related to the probability that both copies of any given gene are derived from the same ancestor. A cold outcross (two different species) would have an inbreeding coefficient of 0. An inbreeding coefficient of 1 would result if the only matings practiced over many generations were between full brother and full sister.

The lower the inbreeding coefficient, the better. With this in mind, a computer program called GENES was developed by Dr. Robert Lacy for the calculation of the inbreeding coefficient, kinship coefficients among animals in the breeding pool, percent contributions of varying founding ancestors, and related output, assuming full pedigrees to the foundation stock were available for all animals currently in the breeding population. For captive breeding populations, the less inbreeding the better, and this is the way the program is used.


Two advantages of inbreeding:

1) You get to be lazy! No need to search the net for the perfect male or female for your snake….just breed it with its parent
2) Bring undesirable recessive genes to the surface where they can be removed from the breeding pool (not breeding this sick/bad snakes)

e.g. Consider, for instance, a gene that causes blindness. Carriers have normal vision, but if one is mated to another carrier, one in four of the babies will be blind. Inbreeding will increase both the number of affected snakes (bad) and the number of genetically normal snakes (good) at the expense of carriers. Inbreeding can thus bring these undesirable recessive genes to the surface, where they can be removed from the breeding pool.

BUT MAY BECOME A BIG DISADVATAGE…see problem 2 with in-breeding

3) Inbreeding has become an important consideration for wildlife conservationists. Many wild populations are in danger of extinction due to some combination of habitat destruction and hunting of the animals, either to protect humans or because the animal parts are considered valuable. For some of these animals the only real hope of survival is captive breeding programs. But the number of animals available in such captive breeding programs, especially at a single zoo, is often limited. Biologists are concerned that the resulting inbred populations would not have all of the genes found in the wild populations, and thus lose some flexibility in responding to change. In reaction to this threat they have developed networks such that animals can be exchanged among captive breeding poplulations in such a way as to minimize the overall inbreeding of the captive population. The idea is to select pairs in such a way that the inbreeding coefficient of the offspring is kept as low as possible.

Problems with in-breeding:

1) “It is always recommended to obtain captive bred, rather than wild-caught, corns. Captive bred ones have become very popular because of all the exotic colors and patterns they "come in". Unfortunately, those morphs are caused by intense inbreeding. As a result, corns are increasingly exhibiting morbitidy and mortality problems as a result of undesireable genes being bred along with the ones for color and pattern. Failure/Inability to feed and sudden, inexplicable death are the two most common problems that have been increasing over that past several years.” See http://www.anapsid.org/corn.html

This is where my original question to cornmorph about inbreeding came. Considering his high number of non feeders, I was wondering if he inbreeds a lot. As stated above, inbreeding is good to create a breed/morph but not to perpetuate the already existing breed/morph. Also, trying to create new morphs from already highly inbred animals is not a good idea for the reasons explained in this message

2) Unfortunately, we cannot breed animals based on a single gene - the genes come as a package. We may inbreed and rigorously remove babies with certain diseases or even their parents from the breeding pool. But remember inbreeding tends to make all genes more homozygous. In at least one breed/morph, an effort to remove a disease can result in the surfacing of a completely different and previously unsuspected health problem. It is easier and faster to lose genes (sometimes very desirable genes) from the breeding pool when inbreeding is practiced than when a more open breeding system is used. In other words, inbreeding will tend to produce more nearly homozygous animals, but generally some of the homozygous pairs will be "good" and others will be "bad".
3) There may be genes where heterozygosity is an advantage. For example, one homozygote suffers from some type of illness, the other homozygote is vulnerable to malaria, and the heterozygote is generally healtly with no impacts from a single copy of the non-standard gene.

The next types of breeding are the ones most used by responsible breeders.

2) Line-breeding

Line-breeding is the mating animals having many common ancestors or mating to a slighty removed relative e.g. granddaughter to grandsire uncle to niece, etc. The benefit of line breeding is the reinforcement of desired characteristics and the elimination of health problems. A throughout knowledge of both pedigrees (at least 5 generations) is necessary for this method
In general most breeders adhere to line-breeding whereby they can insure the uniformity of quality without risking the inherent dangers of in-breeding

3) Out-crossing
Out-crossing is the mating of two snakes that are the product of line-breeding but of two distinctively separate lines

4) Out-breeding

Out-breeding is the mating of two snakes who are not only the products of two distinctively separate lines but on top are not the products of line-breeding
 
G

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in breeding in snakes is not a problem...to an extent!
for example:
if youve got a albino royal....breed to a normal...then you breed one of the 100%hets to the origional mum or dad....theres nothing wrong with this...unlike it would be to a human....sakes are not human...it works diffrently.

it is always good to get new blood lines where you can....

but for a few breedings `not essential`

i know for dogs,cats etc it can also cause problems....but not in snakes.
 
G

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basically yes.
if you inbreed 2 humans...theres a high chance of getting abnormalities

it takes about 2 generations for dogs etc

and hundreds if not thousands for rats and mice

i think with snakes if you inbreed and inbreed then you`ll get abnormalities.....but not off 1 or 2 breedings.its always good to get a new bloodline in...keeps the quality in the snakes.
 

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takes 8 generations in snakes to begin getting signs of inbreeding depression,its different in most species,for instance all the golden hampsters in captivity at this time(must be lots) are descended from a single pair,it all depends on how quickly you can disperse the genes of the parents to the most offspring possible,then you get a population which although closely related is nevertheless genetically diverse.
regards gaz
 

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and just to reply seeing as you dont bother with pms mate....
NONE yes thats NONE, not a single one,less than 1, of my snakes are related that i have bred.
 

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then your a good breeder cornmorphs :)

i personally wouldn't inbreed snakes, i wouldn't expect to inbreed with my sister so i think i can take the time to get my snake a non related mate.
there have been many problems with inbreeding snakes, snakes with two heads, snakes with missing eyes and alot more abnormalitys we just dont hear about it from breeders because some people would probably not buy from them anymore.
 

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If you can manage to keep a snake with two heads alive your laughing all the way to the bank! Not that I think inbreeding is a good idea or nowt....
 

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Jack13 said:
then your a good breeder cornmorphs :)

i personally wouldn't inbreed snakes, i wouldn't expect to inbreed with my sister so i think i can take the time to get my snake a non related mate.
there have been many problems with inbreeding snakes, snakes with two heads, snakes with missing eyes and alot more abnormalitys we just dont hear about it from breeders because some people would probably not buy from them anymore.
in fact there have not been THAT many problems with inbreeding,professional breeders simply could not afford to waste time and money producing large numbers of defective snakes.
gaz
 

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i know, i just couldnt be arsed with another row lol
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
gaz said:
Jack13 said:
then your a good breeder cornmorphs :)

i personally wouldn't inbreed snakes, i wouldn't expect to inbreed with my sister so i think i can take the time to get my snake a non related mate.
there have been many problems with inbreeding snakes, snakes with two heads, snakes with missing eyes and alot more abnormalitys we just dont hear about it from breeders because some people would probably not buy from them anymore.
in fact there have not been THAT many problems with inbreeding,professional breeders simply could not afford to waste time and money producing large numbers of defective snakes.
gaz
I agree with what your saying Jack.

You wouldn’t know if they had many problems with inbreeding due to the fact that the people who have the big name would tend to say that they don’t have inbreeding when in fact they did - as jack said it's to protect their name. One guy one here admitted he has had a bad feeder but over along period of time (from what I understand he breeds quite a few snakes) and he said he gave that snake away because the survival rate is low. Not everyone would do that.

Cornmorphs I did not ignore you pvt message I haven’t been on since now from my last reply on Wednesday (here).

I did not attack you cornmorphs I asked a question and you got defensive, if you really don’t inbreed I would of thought you may have answered in a professional manor and explained how you try and prevent inbreeding. So I then went on and sent that long reply to get you to FULLY understand my question. But again you have answered in the same way. I have nothing against you but I do have something against inbreeding which I was curious to ask you as I saw you were selling non feeders and non feeders possibly being related to inbreeding made me want to ask you that. I was asking if that is what you do.

I would ask the same thing if I had a great friend who done it.

I'm not out to hurt your reputation Cornmorphs, your liked on here by many people nothing anyone can say can hurt a good reputation. I just thought you would have answered something more about what you do to prevent inbreeding instead of you saying you simply don’t inbreed.

Anyway I can go on and on but at some point it's not worth it... I understand from your replies what I needed to know.

Anyone else who has comments about what I said go ahead :D I don’t think many people realize what a big problem inbreeding is... But if I could help then I’ll be proud too.

Thanks for your replies and comments for now and in advance... just don’t try and attack me I don’t want any arguments! :p
 

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the thing is, if people read this and mainly the thread in the classifieds it will look like i inbreed..
there are comments in there where you are not ASKING me, but TELLING me that i inbreed.
now, we are at this stage....
i will say to you, produce some info for me, or back off.... i have told you on 2 threads about 5/6 times now that i havent had any inbred hatchlings.
SO, if you know otherwise, then spill it.. it you dont, then as i said... back off, as if you're not trying to offend me you;re doing a good job and you are going to put people off of me eventually.
its time to put up or shut up..
i expect your next post to have strong evidence of me inbreeding, OR do the right thing at end it as you are VERY wrong here.
 
G

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she seems to be very poinionated....but dosnt really know what she on about from what i can gather

no offence lol

read the spider post...you`ll get what i mean
 

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whis that at laura? link me
 

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lol, jesus... someones really come outta the shell this week
 
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