[mike mc]

just browsing another forum and it said theres new legislation coming in to force soon,im not very clued up on it but it was along the lines of class b listed animals rainbow boas,carpet pythons etc,if you cannot prove the parents were legally imported of the offspring you keep,you can face up to 10 years prison.its not up to the shop,its down to the keeper,has any 1 else heard of it,im not sure wether i can post a link to the other forum due to forum rules

 

[PendleHog]

I think it'll be fine for you to post the link.. its more for the information than publicising the other forum! I havent heard about this one.. would be interested to have a proper look at the proposal.

 

[mike mc]

Control Of Trade In Endangered Species Regulations - Livefood UK Forum

 

[Blazey]

Are you worried that something you have was imported illegally? Its just to stop illegal imports, which seems reasonable enough to me. Your only going to be found guilty under this act if u know u are going to buy something thats not legally imported. If you dont realise its illegally imported then u wont have the neccessary mens rea and u wont be guilty of it. I wouldnt get so worried about it, i dont think anyone on the forum deals with people like that anyway.

 

[Blazey]

And just to point out, this law u linked has been in practice for 2 years, its an amendment of an older law that wasnt covering the problem of illegal importations.

I dont see why people on livefoods found this act disappointing. Why you wouldnt want such a law in place i do not know. Do people want to buy illegally imported animals? If you have no idea you have bought an illegally imported animal you wont be found guilty of anything under this act, its only if u are aware that its available through a criminal act.

Here is the link to the proper bill that was actually legislated in july 2005 so then u can see it wasnt intending to put limits to the decent reptile keepers, but just to stop illegal imports. The Control of Trade in Endangered Species (Enforcement) (Amendment) Regulations 2005 its a very good bill and it went through the process of legislation very fast. I think its fair to say its probably done a very good job for the reptile world rather than being a bad thing

 

[mike mc]

lol i didnt notice the date as it was up top on the forum page i thought it was new lol every rep ive got is captive bred,i wont buy wc or cf let alone illegal

 

[Blazey]

I have a wc lizard and presumably CF boscs. I presume they arent illegal because they are from what i think of as reputable suppliers that many pet shops use, though because i cant be sure of that, if the supplier was found to be guilty of illegally importing, i wouldnt be guilty of anything unless i knew that they were illegally imported.

Basically, unless you know you are dealing with illegal importers, or even have a suspicion of it, you shouldnt buy anything from them as u can also be prosecuted. If you have no idea, you wont be found guilty of anything.

 

[Issa]

I think what they are worried about is whether the burden of proof is on them to prove an animal is legal (difficult in the case of private/show/internet sales), or on the authorities to prove it was imported illegally, and whether their animals can be impounded whilst investigations are made.

 

[PendleHog]

Ok firstly... nothing has come of these regs in terms of not being able to keep Annex B species. It may do yet, but it seems to have been dropped for now in favour of pushing for more changes to the AWB.

Blazey unfortunately you are absolutely incorrect in thinking that you would be protected because you bought from " a reputable source" or you "werent aware they were brought in illegally".
Under this law you woud have no protection using these defences. The main problem with this act is that it would be worded to state YOU (not your suppplier or anyone else) would have to prove the animals were imported legally. Ignorance is NOT a defence (this has also been brought into the new animal welfare bill too!)
You cannot possibly prove Annex B animals are legally imported even if they are because DEFRA doesnt issue paperwork for ANY annex B animals not leaving the EU. All subsequent generations of these animals would also be considered under COTES regs as being illegal and could be confiscated.

So you see.. it makes no difference whether the animals are legally obtained or not, in the eyes of customs and excise theyre not legal because you dont have paperwork (because defra dont issue it!) and as such they can be seized.

Like I say this hasnt come through (the legislation you linked to isnt the same as what was discussed on the livefoods thread) and I would be surprised if it did now considering the issues with regards to human rights and the current concentration on animal welfare and transport regulations.

 

[Blazey]

It clearly states that if you have proof you asked the supplier if the animal was legal and they sign some form of paperwork that it was legal then you would not be held liable for the crime. If people are buying animals that are obviously to their knowledge endangered then it is up to them to find out that sort of information or they themselves are basically saying they dont care if their is a risk of illegal importation and then why shouldnt they be held liable?
Most people on these forums tend to like to know where their reptiles are from when they are buying them. I assume that when people buy, for example, rare snakes, they want to see paperwork of where it is imported from and if its legal and so on, rather than just buy it not knowing. If people dont want to check that for the sake of a cheap bargain and dont give a damn if its illegally imported or not then they are just as bad as the importers themselves.

 

[DeanThorpe]

yeh i think if you had it in writing urd be clear, i dont think pendlehog saw u say that to be honest.
But if it was just "i was told" or "they say all thier stuff is cb" i dont think itd hold up.

What wild caught lizard do you have blazey?
and when u presum a cf bosc, does it mean u have not got paperwork to say its not wild caught? i dont think many boscs that are about are wild caught ,and ours was captive bred locally not farmed which is nice to know.

 

[Blazey]

wild caught lizard is my night lizard. I dont own the paperwork for the bosc but i got in touch with the suppliers when i worked at the pet shop and they confirmed they were CF hatchlings, which i have no reason to doubt as they are reputable and openly say what animals are WC and what arent.
I linked the actual bill in an above post which says when people will or will not be held liable for owning illegally imported animals.

Also dean, theres a topic on CB forums where people are discussing CB boscs as none of them have ever managed to do it, they may be grateful if u put them in touch with ur supplier. I presume u have paperwork for urs?

 

[mike mc]

shop near me said 9 times out of 10 people who say the boscs are captive bred are talking out there backsides,he said they are always cf

 

[captaincaveman]

shop near me said 9 times out of 10 people who say the boscs are captive bred are talking out there backsides,he said they are always cf

i've heard similar here too

 

[Blazey]

I think Fixx and Loulou said they have successfully got their boscs to mate but i think they said their one surviving egg didnt make it.

 

[PendleHog]

yeh i think if you had it in writing urd be clear, i dont think pendlehog saw u say that to be honest.
But if it was just "i was told" or "they say all thier stuff is cb" i dont think itd hold up.

Under current law that would be acceptable (in fact no one would ever ask), BUT under the laws we're actually talking about (those the government wanted to bring in last year) you would NOT be in the clear.

Has everyone actually read the WHOLE livefoods thread? Nils and Eddie covered all this... Say you have paperwork, can you prove the animal you have paperwork for is the one you have in your possession? Nope you cant.. the paperwork doesnt hold microchip numbers or anything else for individual identification of animals. Besides which there would never have been any paperwork.

In addition, even if the animal is LEGALLY IMPORTED the supplier cant prove it has been (because DEFRA dont give you certificates for annex B animals) so even if you're in the clear, the supply of legally sourced animals will stop. You will also be unable to buy CB from the UK because the breeders couldnt prove the adults or original stock were legally imported, thus all offspring would be illegal by proxy.

I spoke to DEFRA about this last year and also emailed my MP and this was all explained to me by both parties.

Actually I dont know why Im bothering to explain, because the proposed legislation on the livefoods thread never came into force as described.

If anyone wants more info on this they would be better off contacting Nils or Eddie Munt.

 

[Blazey]

Deans referring to my above link off the website listing all bills passed through parliament in our legal system. You can search every act of parliament on that website and every bill that is currently in either HOL or HOC at this moment in time. It has dates of when it was proposed and when it was passed.

 

[Athravan]

I forsee a grave problem in that if what Blazey says is true and you can just get the shop to sign something saying it's captive bred or whatever.. how can that be proved? No chippings, no markings, no identifications...

And how does the shop prove that what the wholesaler said was true? How do they prove that what a private breeder or a reseller said was actually true? If there is no governing body identifying animals and issuing paperwork then there is any point down the line where someone can tell a lie, whether purposefully or just because they didn't realise.

So to implement a law requiring paperwork for certain species already well established in the UK is going to just cause havoc surely (and i haven't read the livefood thread.. sorry), because no one can 100% prove anything about the animals they have unless they actually bred them themselves, and somewhere down the line you're not going to be able to prove the parentage.

I hope that if this comes into effect it will only affect newborns and that any existing animals will be issued paperwork without having to prove heritage, because to prove heritage on species that you bought 5, 10, even 20 years ago off some guy in the local pet shop that's now moved on, would be impossible.

 

[mike mc]

sounds like another step at stopping people keeping reps,how can any 1 prove if the paper work was never issued

 

[Blazey]

You wont have to prove it with your reptiles you have kept for years already, as new laws dont work that way. If you raped your wife 50yrs ago u wont be guilty of it now as at the time, there was no law saying it was forbidden.

Nobody on the forum should have any reason to be worried, i doubt any of u deal with dodgy dealers who cant provide paperwork to show where they got their animals from.