[Sandsifter]

Came across this Science paper and found it fascinating. In case it's of interest to anyone else the link is below;

http://www.revistasusp.sibi.usp.br/pdf/philo/v9n1/v9n1a02.pdf

Dry-season retreat and dietary shift of the
dart-poison frog Dendrobates tinctorius (Anura:
Dendrobatidae)

It's a study about seasonal changes in diet and behaviour by tinc's at a site in the Nouragues forest in French Guiana. A lot of interesting observations and some nice photographs of the tinc's found at this location.

Chris

 

[soundstounite]

Ahh mate,when i clicked the link my heart sank as i thought hell i'll stuggle with this,i've banged my head against so many of these papers ,but i think worth it,great find mate thankyou for showing us this,very much appreciated i'll pass this to a mate if i may
kudos sir:2thumb: oh you old rascal happy new year
Stu

 

[Sandsifter]

Happy New Year Stu !

Just read the abstracts m8; if you understand them, then then chances are you might get something from the rest of the paper. If the abstract is going on about the biochemistry of dart toxins then maybe not worth the time at our age

Any idea what "hobby" " morph" equates to the the pic's? They are beautiful..

Chris

 

[igmillichip]

Happy New Year Stu !

Just read the abstracts m8; if you understand them, then then chances are you might get something from the rest of the paper. If the abstract is going on about the biochemistry of dart toxins then maybe not worth the time at our age

Any idea what "hobby" " morph" equates to the the pic's? They are beautiful..

Chris

There's naught wrong with old codgers reading about biochemistry of dart toxins.

I haven't read the paper yet, so will see what it is saying.

ian

 

[igmillichip]

There is a bit of a disappointing part of the paper, and I'm surprised that the peer reviewers didn't ask.........what species of ant and what species of beetle were the prey?
(unless my old codger eye-sight browsed past the species of ant and beetle they found).

They are pretty large clump-all groups of animals.....I'm just imaging a tinc tackling a nice big juicy stagshorn beetle.

ian

 

[Ron Magpie]

I only skimmed it (at work!) so I probably missed it, but how were the stomach contents obtained- dissection?

 

[soundstounite]

I only skimmed it (at work!) so I probably missed it, but how were the stomach contents obtained- dissection?

Ian you make me smile:2thumb:Chris i got through it mate:2thumb::no1:
Ron no mate they washed/sucked the stomach contents out,i can't think of the correct term but some frogs were back feeding in 20 mins in some cases,if i remember correct,this way they could keep track of the same frog over time
oh Chris being yellow tincs and having asked about them for nearly 2 1/2 yrs i'll abstain i think i will note that the 4th pic from around saul looks like a citronella though er which come from........? ok kassikima mountains as far as lotters goes and somewhere else according to tropical experiance,and the rest i guess are nourages(sp?)....help from knowlegable types please :whistling2::lol2::lol2:
Stu

 

[Sandsifter]

Ian you make me smile:2thumb:Chris i got through it mate:2thumb::no1:
Ron no mate they washed/sucked the stomach contents out,i can't think of the correct term but some frogs were back feeding in 20 mins in some cases,if i remember correct,this way they could keep track of the same frog over time
oh Chris being yellow tincs and having asked about them for nearly 2 1/2 yrs i'll abstain i think i will note that the 4th pic from around saul looks like a citronella though er which come from........? ok kassikima mountains as far as lotters goes and somewhere else according to tropical experiance,and the rest i guess are nourages(sp?)....help from knowlegable types please :whistling2::lol2::lol2:
Stu

You did better than me :lol2: Like Ron I missed the bit about the method for getting the stomach contents - mainly because it was right under the shiny photo's I suspect

Ian, they left the Ant ID's out of the main body of the paper; it's stuffed away in Appendix 1 . Nearly 50 different species :gasp:

Chris

 

[Ron Magpie]

Ian you make me smile:2thumb:Chris i got through it mate:2thumb::no1:
Ron no mate they washed/sucked the stomach contents out,i can't think of the correct term but some frogs were back feeding in 20 mins in some cases,if i remember correct,this way they could keep track of the same frog over time
oh Chris being yellow tincs and having asked about them for nearly 2 1/2 yrs i'll abstain i think i will note that the 4th pic from around saul looks like a citronella though er which come from........? ok kassikima mountains as far as lotters goes and somewhere else according to tropical experiance,and the rest i guess are nourages(sp?)....help from knowlegable types please :whistling2::lol2::lol2:
Stu

You did better than me :lol2: Like Ron I missed the bit about the method for getting the stomach contents - mainly because it was right under the shiny photo's I suspect

Ian, they left the Ant ID's out of the main body of the paper; it's stuffed away in Appendix 1 . Nearly 50 different species :gasp:

Chris

Found it guys, thanks! Stomach flushing, huh? I'm sure a few socialites and supermodels would find it useful...:whistling2:

 

[soundstounite]

Found it guys, thanks! Stomach flushing, huh? I'm sure a few socialites and supermodels would find it useful...:whistling2:

unreal isn't Ron that they can do that in the field,and the frog carries on doing what it does. Damn 50 species of ant(ruddy heck Chris i thought you'ld have put a list up:lol2:,nah i'm joking mate),but what grabs me is how a few component diet suddenly becomes much much more,this also illustrates to me how important and oft overlooked the dry season might be to darts,and on a practical level how tricky this is to impliment,especially whilst learning the ropes,
Stu

 

[marcuswinner1]

Ha, Stu, are you refering to your continuing attempts to stop your lot from breeding!?!

Theres loads of people out there scratching their heads trying to get their frogs to do what yours keep doing!!:Na_Na_Na_Na:

 

[Sandsifter]

unreal isn't Ron that they can do that in the field,and the frog carries on doing what it does. Damn 50 species of ant(ruddy heck Chris i thought you'ld have put a list up:lol2:,nah i'm joking mate),but what grabs me is how a few component diet suddenly becomes much much more,this also illustrates to me how important and oft overlooked the dry season might be to darts,and on a practical level how tricky this is to impliment,especially whilst learning the ropes,
Stu

You thinking about watering holes for them to "cask" in during the dry ?

 

[Ron Magpie]

unreal isn't Ron that they can do that in the field,and the frog carries on doing what it does. Damn 50 species of ant(ruddy heck Chris i thought you'ld have put a list up:lol2:,nah i'm joking mate),but what grabs me is how a few component diet suddenly becomes much much more,this also illustrates to me how important and oft overlooked the dry season might be to darts,and on a practical level how tricky this is to impliment,especially whilst learning the ropes,
Stu

i think the sheer variety of prey items is instructive- and inspirational. Confirms to me that for all frogs (not just darts!), the wider the dietry variety we can provide, the better.

 

[soundstounite]

Ha, Stu, are you refering to your continuing attempts to stop your lot from breeding!?!

Theres loads of people out there scratching their heads trying to get their frogs to do what yours keep doing!!:Na_Na_Na_Na:

:lol2:yeah partly mate oh happy new one, i feel that the girls need a rest that the dry season is natural to them and most of us as we start are so concearned about getting this high humidity and feeding them enough that the fact that they modify their behaviour to accomodate the dry times is much overlooked,and we should be trying to replicate this for the health of our charges becauase that's how they live in the wild,hell even the diet changes. To actually do this properly is real difficult for us keepers as it sort of goes against most of what we are accustomed to,how many dart keepers actually are asking how the hell do we impliment the dry season,have you ever seen that posted here? i haven't, not once in...... well a while Marcus.
Not all our frogs are breeding mate, i have a good hunch why the one that isn't is not,and that is down to me not getting everything right, i'm not saying breeding darts is easy on any level,but one has to fulfill their needs give em a good gaff, good grub, have a girl have a boy...or maybe more than one,get all right,then they'll breed.
Its attention to silly details that stockmen do is why they breed(and agood bit of luck) stopping them i think is where dartkeepers get properly tested as it is so so difficult to make them hungry too keep them that dry,its alien to us.
Your tongue poking is hugely flattering mate,i'm not going to say on any level that luck isn't on our side,but there is alot going on that isn't seen that makes that luck happen, alot of that revolves around the mundane,the self discipline ,the little things.To illustrate a mate said to me recently there is no such thing as a day when i don't sort that culture,no excuses it gets sorted period and damn he breeds some darts
Stu
Stu

 

[soundstounite]

You thinking about watering holes for them to "cask" in during the dry ?

yeah i'd argue that the guy that made these ent vivs had a reason for the trough at the front containing water,its a safeguard for when your frog needs to rehydrate, because the air humidity is lower than the frog requires,and fulfills other functions Chris.Recently i watched our male Attachibakka go and sit in water 3 times in one day (that i saw),me being me i started to get real concearned as to why he wanted more water,his viv was humid enough hell I'd just given them a right good misting female showed no signs of needing what he wanted,but he Knew she was about to lay and he needed to keep them eggs right expending more fluid to do that,so he went and had a good soak,thats my hunch Chris. I don't think they should be sittiing init all day thats alarming,but if its there they can utilise it...if not they can't. QED
There should be areas of the viv that let them replicate what they need whatever we are trying to achieve for them,a big ask in a glass box trying to be a damn rainforest,where a tinc in the above paper might climb 40 M up a tree,seems logical that they might occasionally desire a wet place.
Stu

 

[soundstounite]

i think the sheer variety of prey items is instructive- and inspirational. Confirms to me that for all frogs (not just darts!), the wider the dietry variety we can provide, the better.

Amen to that:notworthy:
Stu

 

[Sandsifter]

yeah i'd argue that the guy that made these ent vivs had a reason for the trough at the front containing water,its a safeguard for when your frog needs to rehydrate, because the air humidity is lower than the frog requires,and fulfills other functions Chris.Recently i watched our male Attachibakka go and sit in water 3 times in one day (that i saw),me being me i started to get real concearned as to why he wanted more water,his viv was humid enough hell I'd just given them a right good misting female showed no signs of needing what he wanted,but he Knew she was about to lay and he needed to keep them eggs right expending more fluid to do that,so he went and had a good soak,thats my hunch Chris. I don't think they should be sittiing init all day thats alarming,but if its there they can utilise it...if not they can't. QED
There should be areas of the viv that let them replicate what they need whatever we are trying to achieve for them,a big ask in a glass box trying to be a damn rainforest,where a tinc in the above paper might climb 40 M up a tree,seems logical that they might occasionally desire a wet place.
Stu

My first viv is a big fail on that Stu. I could have built a raised glass base and put the drainage hole to the front, but it was a narrow 60x40x30 viv so I was thinking i should maximise floor space/invert space by missing out the gulley/ and having a leca layer to provide constant input to humidity and another refuge for the inverts.

 

[soundstounite]

My first viv is a big fail on that Stu. I could have built a raised glass base and put the drainage hole to the front, but it was a narrow 60x40x30 viv so I was thinking i should maximise floor space/invert space by missing out the gulley/ and having a leca layer to provide constant input to humidity and another refuge for the inverts.

The water thing is very much my point of view Chris driven by observation as illustrated.Mind a simple low dish will sort the situation,for you,i can see why you went the way you did,its a sound way of thinking. More and more of the vivs we make now don't have the rear background down to the floor hence giving a hiding place and more floor/subs area,sort of working the other way round,grabbing a bit at the back.One can also put in a terrace ie hollow shelf filled with subs as another option with this in mind so essentially doubling up,we did this in the panama specials tank.Ha there are no fixed ways of doing this mate.
seeya
Stu