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I don't co-hab burmese pythons together, because if something happend, I probably couldn't do anything about it being a skinny minny and that isn't wise.

Most of my lizards are co-habbed together, (depending on their individual personalities) iguanas etc, while some live separately. :)

Snake wise, corn snakes, royals, pines, I have done various boas before, BRB's, CRB's common boas etc, garter snakes. etc

I only encounterd one problem once, and it was because I had just separated them for feeding, and went to put them back in too soon without thinking, scent of mice still on them, caused them to start trying to munch each other, but were easily separated, since then I decided to leave them 24 hours before putting them back in together, no problems since. : victory:

This is something I will certainly be looking into as I have been looking at getting a couple lizards soon aswell would prefer to house together. IS there a thread you talk further about co-hab or do you have a picture of one of your set ups? : victory:
 

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All reptiles deserve to be provided with an enclosure that allows them to explore, choose where to hide, lay in the open, bathe if desired and CLIMB. Given the chance they will try this out. They don't want to spend their entire life chasing their tail which just about all a RUB allows. These are all beautiful animals and we owe it to them to provide them with as much room and keep it as natural as possible for them. After all you wouldn't keep a pet Labrador in a 3ft x 2ft x 2ft viv or a rabbit in a 50ltr RUB.
That's my opinion anyway :)
the remark you made about rubs only allowing them to chase their tails has really nothing to do with the plastic enclosure ie. RUB its due to the keeper not using a bigger one over trying to keep as many as possible in a certain space. A too small wooden enclosure ie. a viv can also be used. People need to get away from the "RUBs are the problem" line of thought and realise its the keepers fault as they are the ones not using decent sized enclosures, whether they are plastic or wooden. Plastic tubs come in various sizes and the boa tubs are more appropriate for adult royals but hey they take up too much space don't they.
 

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This is something I will certainly be looking into as I have been looking at getting a couple lizards soon aswell would prefer to house together. IS there a thread you talk further about co-hab or do you have a picture of one of your set ups? : victory:
Here is one of my main iguana enclosures, it is being extended atm by a further 6ft though along the back. :)

 

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iv had vivs in the past now i tend to go for the rack setup, very easy to keep clean nice and dark at the back plenty of room to thermo regulate and all in all the snakes feed each and every time in my opinion that would be a happy snake !! granted there on less floor space than if i was to house them in a viv. it has already been said that a tub where a snake can touch a couple of sides is bound to feel safe and secure if not im sure they would stop feeding.

i can understand peoples sides to the story though.

also i noticed the picture of BHBs large retic on the rack, i personaly have spoke to brian about this and he did purchase a large viv stack for this snake and others, the one in the rack flat out refused to feed once housed in a viv and after a while was returned to her rack where she got right back on the food.
I used to do voluntary work for the rspca. They had a mastiff x great dane that had been living in a one bedroom flat with a couple of siblings. it had never been outside and lived in its own filth. This dog was terrified of the outside world, and people. really nervous. Eventually with time he calmed down and started to enjoy life when he realized he wasn't in constant danger and was adopted and seemed a lot happier IMO.

By what your saying, this animal was obviously happier in cramped and dirty conditions because that's what he had always known and when he became overwhelmed they should have shut him back up rather than give him the chance to live a fuller life?...
 

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I used to do voluntary work for the rspca. They had a mastiff x great dane that had been living in a one bedroom flat with a couple of siblings. it had never been outside and lived in its own filth. This dog was terrified of the outside world, and people. really nervous. Eventually with time he calmed down and started to enjoy life when he realized he wasn't in constant danger and was adopted and seemed a lot happier IMO.

By what your saying, this animal was obviously happier in cramped and dirty conditions because that's what he had always known and when he became overwhelmed they should have shut him back up rather than give him the chance to live a fuller life?...

This is also a very important thing to highlight, great post by the way above.
But this (they have to be feeding to be healthy and happy is totally nonsense) I would love to know where on earth this line of thought even came from?

Ill and stressed animals can eat and breed, I see this daily, every single day healthy animals can go off their food, again I see this alot, it is subjective and varible, and it has no real ground baisis in any real fact.
Here is a few short examples.
rescue work. | online slideshow
Though I can understand why people choose to belive it, it is said on just about every care website going, but as the saying goes, common thought doesn't make facts :)
 

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my opinions on racks are purely based on my own selfish reasons.

Snake keeping (and most pet if not all pet keeping) is all done due by humans being selfish and wanting to please and satisfy certain needs.

Personally i dont like racks and tubs as i cant see what im keeping, i cant learn from them. I find it very hard to determine if theres any issues with the husbandry as i can only watch the animal when the tub is opened which immediately alters the snakes behaviour, usually into a defensive or hiding mode. And more importantly, i cant sit back in a chair at the end of a day with a beer and watch them.

I see there use and see why if you want to breed animals then you would use them. There has to be some trade off between space given to an animal in order to keep the numbers you want to keep for breeding purposes. That trade off is all personal and i have no issues with whatever anyone chooses to do unless i personally feel like its extremely small, but then again. On their morals be it.
The problem i have with racks/tub is its seen as the norm and its too easy as a new keeper to get swept up in that collecting mentality. It happened to myself when i first started keeping and took me a few years to step back and think about what i was doing. Its only because we keep our snakes mainly out of public view that its deemed acceptable in my opinion. We can throw about the whole "snakes like hides and cramped spaces, and in the wild they would be in a burrow x amount of hours" yadda yadda, all we like but the fact stands that if you show any none snake person a rack, theyll be shocked and question why they are in drawers. It looks bad for a reason. Because it isnt the best.

Big breeders are just reptile farms. Theres nothing wrong with that in my opinion, thats how they make their money and their happy doing that, Its no skin off my back.

I wholeheartedly 100% believe, no matter what the species, that more space is better. Its how you utilise that space that makes the difference. Offering the animal a choice has to be better than giving it no choice what so ever. It just has to be in my mind, its logical. For example take a royal that likes to stay in its hide all day. Give that animal the choice to burrow/climb/position itself in multiple hides with varying temperatures just has to be better than giving it a drawer with a water bowl. BUT life isnt so perfect and thats were your morals come into play. As long as your content with how your animals are being kept, then whos place is it to say otherwise. I cant get it into my head how someone would think a small tub is better than a huge open space. Why not put a rub in a huge viv and modify it to be a proper burrow if thats what you believe it likes. I think people like to convince themselves that its the best for the animal when really its just better for us the majority of the time.

Basically, theres nothing wrong with rack type enclosures but imo there is something wrong with how widespread there use is and theres a lot more wrong with peoples mindsets.

Not that i truly believe that im high and mighty... honestly. Its just all my useless opinion and observations
 

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I have been reading a lot of posts on this subject the last few months and it has been said that people use rubs and racks as a cheaper way of housing royals. I have seen some racks made for 50 and 33 litre rubs which cost thousands of pounds, more than it would cost to buy 15 3ft vivs and kit them out. So its not the money, its not that larger rubs/tubs are not availiable, its purely so that thay can keep " X " amount of royals in the smallest space availiable, as if it was not, larger tubs( like the one with the retic in) would be used if you had the best interests of you snake first and foremost. The alternatives are out there but its only the keepers who can decide whether to use them or not.
 

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the remark you made about rubs only allowing them to chase their tails has really nothing to do with the plastic enclosure ie. RUB its due to the keeper not using a bigger one over trying to keep as many as possible in a certain space. A too small wooden enclosure ie. a viv can also be used. People need to get away from the "RUBs are the problem" line of thought and realise its the keepers fault as they are the ones not using decent sized enclosures, whether they are plastic or wooden. Plastic tubs come in various sizes and the boa tubs are more appropriate for adult royals but hey they take up too much space don't they.
It makes no difference what type of material is used as the enclosure but the original debate is about snake racks and you don't use wooden boxes or vivariums in racks you use Rubs or similar type of boxes. It simply comes down to the space the RUB, tub or vivarium takes up in the majority of cases. Whether its wood, glass or plastic if its to small the snake will be chasing its tail. :2thumb:
 
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