[Stickandleaffriends]

Hi Im new to the forum but have had stick insects on and off for the last 30 years, I recently got myself a collection of insect together and one of those is a female budwing, I also got some Vietnamese Nui Chua and when they arrived the male mated with his own kind female but then moved onto the budwing and has successfully mounted her for the last 96 hours, I was wondering if anyone had any experience with hybridization and what are the outcomes of the nymphs when they hatch, I know male budwings are rare and they produce eggs on their own anyway but this Nui chua make is only about 2 inches long and red and blue in colour so im excited to see what the two of them will produce and wether there will be male and females

 

[ian14]

I would suggest destroying all the eggs. Hybrids are not a good thing.

 

[Stickandleaffriends]

In what way? Health?

I would suggest destroying all the eggs. Hybrids are not a good thing.

 

[ian14]

In what way? Health?

Hybrids destroy the genetic purity of a species.

 

[Moyzie]

Hybrids destroy the genetic purity of a species.

Sounds like a speech leading up to 1939 -1945

 

[ian14]

Sounds like a speech leading up to 1939 -1945

Not when you consider the mess that hybrids cause. I also find it extremely offensive to be likened to a Nazi.

 

[Moyzie]

Not when you consider the mess that hybrids cause. I also find it extremely offensive to be likened to a Nazi.

Apologies if you was offended. I was at the Imperial War Museum last week and spent three hours in the Holocaust section. There were some very strong beliefs held and the boldness of some of the statements / texts that I read there, often created to justify mass death. It was an emotional few hours
Anyway my point was theres a very strong resemblance to your sentence. As flippant as I can often be, I was actually being serious. Thats not me calling you a nazi though

*

In the canine breeding world, in-breeding leads to more health issues so you are in fact better of breeding hybrids / crossbreeds - although their sale value is next to nothing.
And also through selective breeding you now get everything from a pug to a great dane. All from one wolf sperm

I am curious, not attempting to be difficult. I love learning. What is the mess thats caused. Is it purely mislabelling and bad IDs. OR are there other knock on effects

 

[ian14]

You cannot use dogs as an example. They are all the same species, simply different breeds. Wolves, of course, are different, but equally wolfdogs are a problem due to retaining the behaviour of a wolf.
Your stick insects are different species. What happens I 10 years time if, for example, one of the parent species was facing extinction? The captive population, if messed up by hybridisation, is no longer of any use for conservation.

 

[Moyzie]

You cannot use dogs as an example. They are all the same species, simply different breeds. Wolves, of course, are different, but equally wolfdogs are a problem due to retaining the behaviour of a wolf.
Your stick insects are different species. What happens I 10 years time if, for example, one of the parent species was facing extinction? The captive population, if messed up by hybridisation, is no longer of any use for conservation.

Ok, good point. Dogs were a bad example. I should of said fish... or shrimp

I myself have a lot of shrimp, some are expensive and rare. Others, although they look very different to each other,, they are in fact the same species. Either way I keep these in species/certain colours or patterns only tanks. I also have another tank which the not so nice shrimp go into. Genetic throwbacks... The ones with low grade colouring etc. The odd ones. The tanks of eventual death.
These in turn breed. You get some proper random colour configs, but most just go browny. But any shrimp in that tank lives a life of russian roullette with the net - I see it the same as keeping roaches or crickets. Free fish food.

 

[Swindinian]

Agreed, people often refer to cross breeding dogs being comparable to hybridising, but dogs have very little genetic diversity despite the visual variation seen.
So, whilst cross breeding of dogs can help to improve genetic vigour, conversely, hybridising of different species can have many unintended consequence.

‘Genetic purity‘ is a troublesome term, used frequently but has some unsavoury undertones, and perhaps misrepresents the intended outcome?

So when people refer to ‘pure’, it conjures up connotations of inbred/line bred, which is arguably just as harmful to long term captive viability as hybridising?

Maybe a better term would be ‘genetic distinctiveness’ of a species?

Thoughts?

 

[Stickandleaffriends]

I understand everyones points but I hardly believe I am doing any lasting harm to the two species involved by allowing these eggs to hatch and seeing what if any visual or size differences the two species mating has created, Im sure there are enough of these two species around the world for there to be no lasting effect , this is quite possibly the 1st time ever this has happened and for that im excited

 

[Moyzie]

I understand everyones points but I hardly believe I am doing any lasting harm to the two species involved by allowing these eggs to hatch and seeing what if any visual or size differences the two species mating has created, Im sure there are enough of these two species around the world for there to be no lasting effect , this is quite possibly the 1st time ever this has happened and for that im excited

No harm !?!? No harm ?!!?

You know when you see films like Gremlins, did you ever wonder where the Mogwai came from? Well let me tell you that there was a man, wondering what would happen if this animal was mixed with animal. What would the outcome be. Harmless he said.

That is of course me being, or trying to be humorous

Im guessing you could see the outcomes. Photograph them. And then destroy them, But to me that sounds evil.

Strangely though, in a discussion already mentioning Germany pre 1939......... did you know that in Southern Germany, in the Bavarian Mountains there was a fascination with combining animals, pre and post death.

When i was over there I saw a lot of Taxidermy creations. Like A dogs body, with a sheeps head, deer antlers and floppy rabbit ears. Or a ducks bill attached to to a mammal. Proper monsters of the forest - animals of nightmares. There was one shop window selling them and I left that window feeling violated. I then saw in a documentary that this line of thinking was actually experimented on by the scientists during the war, amongst other things. But using live subjects.

 

[Moyzie]

I do understand the excitement though, maybe you've created something beautiful. And apologies for the digression

 

[Stickandleaffriends]

That shop sounds like a horror movie setting, also I appreciated your humour with the gremlin analogy 😄