Reptile Forums banner

1 - 18 of 18 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,093 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Where do you draw the line when breeding snakes? Would you breed two snakes if one had a slight tail kink, or a severe spinal kink or a major head wobble / balance issues? Would you breed for the colour of the animal regardless of any visual defects (because it's that good/expensive a morph) and then hope the offspring are fine?

I'm not targeting any specific species/morphs, I'm just hoping to hear some people's opinions on this :2thumb:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
22,890 Posts
Tail kink (any severity if I did not know for MYSELF that it was due to an injury): no.
Spinal kink (any severity): no.
Balance issues or wobble: no.
Feeding issues as a hatchling: no.
Has produced offspring with obvious problems in the past that are not due to incubation temperature fluctuations: no.

If I'm breeding pet snakes there is no good reason for me to breed anything that is less than perfect or produces less than perfect offspring.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
306 Posts
you might just as well hand out grenades without the pins on here mate lol. expect a lot of hassle on this :2thumb:

however the opportunity to discuss this is always welcome as far as i'm concerned.

the 'go-to' argument on this is the spider gene in royals that induces head wobble in some individuals. we have a spider in our collection and will be breeding her next year with a pastel to hopefully get a bumblebee or two out. we are doing this because we want a bumblebee. i admit that even i have pangs of guilt about whether it is morally right to breed from an animal knowing there is a defect possible. however i would never tell someone not to do something purely on the basis of i don't agree with it. i rationalise my plan to breed by the fact that our spider shows no distress or difficulty related to this wobble. she eats, sheds and poos with no discernible difficulty and generally seems to be a happy, healthy snake.

also, once i've tried this breeding with her she'll probably never be used again in this capacity. she's a pet to us, not a money machine. there are a few morphs i would like, but i'd rather breed to them than buy them so our plans are to buy base morphs and breed them to produce supers/inters/higher morphs. again some snakes will probably be sold, but that isn't our reason for breeding. we do it because we want certain snakes and would rather breed them ourselves so we have better knowledge of their parentage. this allows us to be more certain of how they will develop as they grow, and adds peace of mind that we know as much about our animals as possible. hopefully this would reduce the chances of major or even minor defects being passed on.

this one really is a tin of worms, but it's a serious consideration i think anyone interested in breeding has to consider.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
20,860 Posts
I wouldn't breed unless the defect was caused by injury and therefore no chance of it being hereditary.

I have a corn with a hair lip and a couple with kinks which I will never breed from but on the otherhand I have a boa with a dip in his spine which I had xrayed and it was found to be caused by fused ribs that had been broken years before. The boa has been bred from and all his offspring were perfect.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
35,069 Posts
personally I would have to judge each case on its merits and pitfalls.

Obviously breeding any female with kinking that would make a pregnancy dangerous is a big no no. Again with a male it comes down to whether its a heritable condition or an injury.

As for head wobble, I have no problem breeding morphs that have a chance of showing this trait. I think everyone has their own moral compass on this though.

I don;t think I would have a problem breeding from an animal that started life as a poor feeder TBH. IF however it produced off spring that were significantly poor feeders, then I wouldn't use that animal to breed again.

Unfortunately peoples morals on this can be very black and white, when infact its a very grey area. Nature is far from perfect, and what we call 'defects' or 'abnormalities' could well be perfectly viable genetic mutations.

I am sure that if there were no snakes around, and we started breeding lizards with really short stumpy legs, or no legs, we would probably think it some sort of genetic freak, and never breed from it?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,093 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
you might just as well hand out grenades without the pins on here mate lol. expect a lot of hassle on this :2thumb:
Indeed, but it is defiantly an issue that I think even hobbyist snake keepers should consider, so I think I'll prepare to put on my hard hat on if necessary :2thumb: Off course there is the spider royal, with it's head wobble but good feeding response, but I'm hoping this degenerate into a spider argument.
But out of interest, how good/bad is your spider? XD
And I think it's actually a very sensible idea to breed your own, especially if you just want to keep them as pets rather than making money out of selling snakes with possible issues :)


personally I would have to judge each case on its merits and pitfalls.

Obviously breeding any female with kinking that would make a pregnancy dangerous is a big no no. Again with a male it comes down to whether its a heritable condition or an injury.

As for head wobble, I have no problem breeding morphs that have a chance of showing this trait. I think everyone has their own moral compass on this though.

I don;t think I would have a problem breeding from an animal that started life as a poor feeder TBH. IF however it produced off spring that were significantly poor feeders, then I wouldn't use that animal to breed again.

Unfortunately peoples morals on this can be very black and white, when infact its a very grey area. Nature is far from perfect, and what we call 'defects' or 'abnormalities' could well be perfectly viable genetic mutations.
I would like to see if anyone (will admit to being) purely focused on colours and possible morphs. It's unlikely that anyone will admit to it though - as it could get messy with other people saying it is dead wrong.
It does seem best to judge each case separately, but as a generalisation, would you say that you weigh the outcome of the breeding against the health of the parents?

I am sure that if there were no snakes around, and we started breeding lizards with really short stumpy legs, or no legs, we would probably think it some sort of genetic freak, and never breed from it?
Probably, as we wouldn't have the foresight to see what they could adapt/evolve/be bred to survive without legs. I'm sure if it actually happened though that Animal Rights/Welfare groups would have heart-attacks and anyone selectively breeding for a lack of legs would be said to be playing god.
But then even if people did we wouldn't actually get snakes like we have today, with dislocating jaw etc, would we? They're just such specialised reptiles - we'd end up with some more slow worms that couldn't do much other than wriggling around.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
35,069 Posts
It does seem best to judge each case separately, but as a generalisation, would you say that you weigh the outcome of the breeding against the health of the parents?
I wouldn't breed any animal that wasn't in proper breeding condition, in terms of being pysically being capable of carrying through a pregnancy.

However I do, and will continue to breed Jags, even though they have very well documented neurological issues. Why, because I love the morph, and having had first hand knowledge of animals with visible neuro issues, I personally do not think that, in 99% of animals, it affects their quality of life. If I did have a hatchling displaying the issue to the point that I felt was cruel, I would euthanise it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,560 Posts
I wouldn't breed any animal that wasn't in proper breeding condition, in terms of being pysically being capable of carrying through a pregnancy.

However I do, and will continue to breed Jags, even though they have very well documented neurological issues. Why, because I love the morph, and having had first hand knowledge of animals with visible neuro issues, I personally do not think that, in 99% of animals, it affects their quality of life. If I did have a hatchling displaying the issue to the point that I felt was cruel, I would euthanise it.

I can't be arsed to go into this subject again at the moment..LoL!

But an honestly and genuine question. I have been thinking about the Jag gene (i know they have more than other species etc). Do you think it's similar to the Motley boa gene as in the Super (Lucy) cannot survive?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
306 Posts
generally speaking our spider's head wobble isn't that bad. sometimes she goes days/weeks without any wobble, other times she'll spend ages dancing about. she really doesn't seem to mind tho, and as far as it's possible to tell, she isn't badly handicapped by it. feeding response and ability to strike prey isn't noticably impaired, altho she does take longer to swallow down the food than the others. however i have corns that take just as long to eat and they display no kind of issues. she's gaining weight regularly, poos at normal intervals and sloughs without problem. she's also a cracking little girl who likes to mooch about all over you when she comes out to play.
i believe she is also the only one of my snakes not to have pooed on me at some point!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
35,069 Posts
But an honestly and genuine question. I have been thinking about the Jag gene (i know they have more than other species etc). Do you think it's similar to the Motley boa gene as in the Super (Lucy) cannot survive?
I don't really have enough knowledge of the Motley Boa gene to be able to comment really Rob, but in terms of the Colombian motleys that seem to have a very short life expectancy, and reported high infertility, then no I would not draw any comparisions with that. Also Motleys, as far as I am aware do not have a Neuro issue? Lots of morphs, or combinations of morphs can produce Leucistic forms, so I wouldn't necessarily draw a comparison on just that basis.

However perhaps, or perhaps not, more significantly the spider royal super form would also appear to be non-viable.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,093 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
However I do, and will continue to breed Jags, even though they have very well documented neurological issues. Why, because I love the morph, and having had first hand knowledge of animals with visible neuro issues, I personally do not think that, in 99% of animals, it affects their quality of life. If I did have a hatchling displaying the issue to the point that I felt was cruel, I would euthanise it.
( I don't know much about Jag's neuro problems ) Do you try and breed animals with less, even if in 99% of animals it doesn't affect their quality of life?

she's also a cracking little girl who likes to mooch about all over you when she comes out to play.
i believe she is also the only one of my snakes not to have pooed on me at some point!
She does sound like a sweetheart :flrt:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
35,069 Posts
( I don't know much about Jag's neuro problems ) Do you try and breed animals with less, even if in 99% of animals it doesn't affect their quality of life?
Unfortunately the occurance and severity would appear to be completely random, so even selecting 2 animals with no visibly apparent problem, could still produce a clutch that could all have a visible problem.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,560 Posts
I don't really have enough knowledge of the Motley Boa gene to be able to comment really Rob, but in terms of the Colombian motleys that seem to have a very short life expectancy, and reported high infertility, then no I would not draw any comparisions with that. Also Motleys, as far as I am aware do not have a Neuro issue? Lots of morphs, or combinations of morphs can produce Leucistic forms, so I wouldn't necessarily draw a comparison on just that basis.

However perhaps, or perhaps not, more significantly the spider royal super form would also appear to be non-viable.
Interesting Blade. I was assuming the (lucy) was the 'super form' of the Jag for some reason or other just before. But you may have a point. It just seems strange that the Lucy doesn't survive either. No more thinking for me today!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
306 Posts
yeah she is, in fact all the pythons are really cool people, especially esme the dustbin python. got something left over after feeding? hey esme, fancy a...GULP... i'll just put these empty tongs away again then!:2thumb:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,093 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Unfortunately the occurance and severity would appear to be completely random, so even selecting 2 animals with no visibly apparent problem, could still produce a clutch that could all have a visible problem.
I don't know what other to say than ... yikes! Maybe its a homo/het related condition? Either way that must make it more interesting when a clutch hatches.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,936 Posts
Where do you draw the line when breeding snakes? Would you breed two snakes if one had a slight tail kink, or a severe spinal kink or a major head wobble / balance issues? Would you breed for the colour of the animal regardless of any visual defects (because it's that good/expensive a morph) and then hope the offspring are fine?

I'm not targeting any specific species/morphs, I'm just hoping to hear some people's opinions on this :2thumb:
just kill them all

hope this help

roger
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
22,890 Posts
Interesting Blade. I was assuming the (lucy) was the 'super form' of the Jag for some reason or other just before. But you may have a point. It just seems strange that the Lucy doesn't survive either. No more thinking for me today!
The homozygous Jaguar carpet python is a leucistic (dark-eyed-white) snake that dies in the egg or shortly afterwards, yes - but not all leucistic, dark-eyed white snakes are the result of an equivalent detrimental gene in their own species, and not all leucistic, dark-eyed white snakes are non-viable. Most of the combinations of royal pythons that produce dark-eyed white snakes *are* viable.

Spider in royals has not been proven to produce *any* homozygous form as yet (there is no individual animal who has produced nothing but Spider offspring when bred to a normal, every single breeding) ... so there's a chance that it is a homozygous lethal, like Dominant Lethal Yellow in mice, where a heterozygous animal is solid gold in colour, but a homozygous embryo fails to develop and therefore Yellow to Yellow breedings usually result in litters that are approximately one-fourth smaller than usual.
 
1 - 18 of 18 Posts
Top