[Gregg M]

I have tried various substrates with her and we always get the same results of wheezing when in the humid hide. I have always used moss for the humid hide as I kind of assumed this would be the best thing to use as this seems to be what the majority of people use. Someone has said she could be allergic to the moss ? I am thinking of maybe trying to use damp hummus (coco fibre) in the humid hide to see what this would do but I am concerned that it maybe worse than the moss due to the smell of it and how fine it is. Maybe you can suggest a better alternative for the hide ? Her substrate is aspen at the moment and this seems to suit her, she spends lots of time burrowing and staying underneath it.

Thanks.

Hey Red,
I think that moss is not a suitable substrate for a humid hide. What the majority of people use and what is actually good for our reptiles are 2 different thing entirely. Do these animals burrow through mounds of sphagnum moss in nature? No, nothing even close to it.

So, the reason why moss is no good is because it is actually wet and not humid. There is a difference. What you see going on with the noises your hogs are making is condensation in the nostrils. I have seen this before as well. It will not be harmful but people automatically think it is causing a URI. I can promise you, it is not. However, when a hognose uses a proper humid hide, they will not get a condensation build up and will not have water in the nostrils. You also want your humid hide box to be in a cooler area in the viv.

As I advised HerbsParents, the better substrate would be coco fiber. It is easy to use and works properly. I have advised many keepers that using coco fiber is far better and it is amazing how mamy people made the switch and will never go back to using moss. Both for humid hides and nest boxes.

 

[Gregg M]

Bit confusing. Are you saying totally dry coco fibre is going to provide a moist hide? Or does it need to be wetted first?

And Surely, if you place a humid hide in a cool area of the viv, condensation is going to unavoidable? I dont understand how something that isnt wet, or holding water, is going to provide humidity.

Where did I say the coco fiber should be completely dry? It needs to be damp but not wet. I am not sure how this can be confusing in any way, shape, or form. We are talking about humid hides Rick. This means that the substrate in it needs to be damp. Is this a bit more clear for you? I really did not think that a concept so simple needed to be explained. Maybe I am giving people too much credit?

And tell me how you come to the conclusion that condensation is unavoidable on the cooler side of the cage? Do you have any idea how condensation is formed?

 

[Gregg M]

Gregg just out of interest,can you describe your set up? Heating,substrate etc? please.

See, now this is the type of question that should be asked.

My set ups vary from species to species. Most of my hogs are in rack systems however, I do have a few that I keep in very naturalistic cages.

The racks are set up simply. A water dish, aspen bedding, and a humid hide on the cool end. They are heated with heat tape and thermostatically controlled. Temps on the basking are set to 95 degrees.

My breeder females who are about to lay eggs are set up in a rack system where the bins are filled 3/4 of the way with damp coco fiber with a platform on top of it so the snake can go in or out. This allows the female full cage nesting which is far better than just adding a nest box.

 

[Gregg M]

a 'simple concept' for you, actually translates to a load of :censor: to me.

Your inability to understand is on you pal. You may want to refrain from derailing this informative thread with your underhanded questions and remarks.

To answer Reds question, yes, scrap the moss. Wet the coco and sqeaz out the water until you can barely get a drip out of it.

 

[Gregg M]

Is this humid hide for a troubled shedder. Or are you using a humid hide as standard, just a question not a criticism. It's something I have never had to use in a hognose Viv.

It is for everyday use. Humid hides are not just for shedding.

 

[Gregg M]

E2a gregg, if you were to say that youve used both substrates extensively and from your experience, for some unknown reason coco husk doesnt have the same health implications as sphagnum moss, i would be more than happy to accept that. When you just say you shouldnt use moss because its wet not humid, im going to question it, as it doesnt make any sense. For the OP, and everyone elses benefit. You speak awfully authoritatively about things, throwing in the odd scientific word, which i can understand is convincing for a lot of people, but to me it just looks like you ramming your preferences down peoples throat and forcing them to do the same as you, when youve nothing to back it up.

Rick, I have been doing this for many years and have tried many different humid hide substrates over the years. I have used sphagnum moss. Did for a long time. I have seen the same problems that Red has seen with her hognose in various other species when using sphagnum. You can question it all you like. It does not make what I have experienced any less true. When I speak, it is from experience and I can care less how you personally take it.

And yes, if someone starts a thread asking Gregg M a specific question, I am going to give them my preference and the reason why it is my preference. I am not going to give them Ricks preference. I can not force anyone to do what I do. I can only advise them. I guess over 25 years of keeping and breeding reptiles is enough "back up" for you. Producing and raising more snakes and lizards in one season than you have kept your entire life is not enough for me to know what works and what does not work? So how about you offer something other than your "questions"? Stop stalking me and looking to discredit what I say. You might learn something new if you just try what I say instead of bitching about what I say or how I say it.

E2a although ive never used it, im pretty sure if you squeeze coco enough it will be dry in a few hours. Like a sponge would. Or Sphagnum moss. Or anything else that absorbs water.

You have never used it but you are sure of its capabilities? LOL. Get a grip Rick. You are really off base here. Keep in mind, like I said, I have been doing this a very long time. The thing with sphagnum moss it that it needs to take in a lot more water to get a good hydration level than coco fiber does. More water means wetter conditions. It is also "fluffy" and airs out quicker than coco fiber. Coco fiber is almost in a dirt form and can be packed down. This in turn creates a humidity gradient. The lower levels will be damper than the upper levels. This gives the snake the option to be as humid and as dry as it wants. This is something you just can not get with sphagnum moss. Dispute what I say all you like. It really does not matter. If people reading this choose to go with what I advise, they will see a huge difference.

Beyond all of this, Reds is seeing an issue from using sphagnum moss as a humid hide substrate. I am trying to help correct the issue with solid advice. All you are doing is disrupting the thread with your obvious dislike for how I type words on a computer screen..

 

[Gregg M]

And just a side note and another reason why I do not recommend sphagnum moss.

Pulmonary sporotrichosis is an illness caused by a fungus called Sporothrix schenckii that specifically and COMMONLY grows in sphagnum moss dead or living, treated and not treated.

 

[Gregg M]

Oh and if I ask a specific Ask Gregg M a question thread, it'll be Can I have one of your hoggies, pretty please lol.

Anything for you Ailsa.:2thumb:

 

[Gregg M]

its also commonly found in soil, so if u have any soil near ur captives PANIC!

there's a difference between supporting ur argument and scaremongering to win that argument gregg.

rgds

ed

Ed, I respect your opinion and do not fully disagree. It is just one of the few reasons I do not recommend it. I think I have supported my "argument" just fine with my experience and reasoning before the last part I added.

 

[Gregg M]

As usual a thread on here with bitchy attacks:bash: Why don't people just accept people keep snakes in different ways,

Yeah, It sucks but that is how it is on forums sometimes.

now I don't breed hognoses so don't have Greggs experience but I have had hognoses in my lot for about 20yrs, I have never used a humid hide with them as I have never felt the need. I must say though if I have a humid hide for anyone I do use spag it works for me and my snakes. People need to READ (even real books), RESEARCH, LISTEN RESPECTIVELY and then make there own decisions based on that and be ready to adapt to the individual snakes needs.

See, now the problem with keepers and reptile husbandry is that keepers only offer what they "feel is needed". The truth of the matter is that more often than not what people think their reptiles need and what their reptiles actually need are two entirely different things altogether. Not trying to be an ass. Just being honest.

Now, humid hides are not just to aid in shedding like most keepers seem to think. They serve other purposes. Hognose snakes do not live in hot dry conditions all the time. So, why is that what we offer them so often in captivity? It is actually advised in hognose care sheets to keep them hot and as dry as possible. Reptiles, including hognose snakes need a retreat from hot and dry for obvious reason. Hognose snakes do indeed come from arid areas, however, that is only on the surface. Where they spend the majority of their life is much cooler and much more humid. Underground. They only surface for certain functions like basking/thermo regulating, finding food, finding a mate/breeding, and moving from one area of their environment to another. They spend little time out exposed in the drying elements. So, if they live in cooler, more humid areas in their environment, why do most keepers only offer then hot and dry? How does this make any sense what so ever?

So, on to the actual function of a humid hide spot.
Humid hides offer a humidity gradient. Hognose snakes and almost all other reptiles need a humidity gradient. This allows them to conserve or hold onto moisture they get from their food or drinking water. It actually keeps them well hydrated. In the wild where hogs are from, drinking water is very rare so these animals evolved to conserve what they take in. If you see your snakes drink water often, it is an indication of low level dehydration. It is more of a natural function for hogs to conserve moisture than it is for them to drink water. Hogs who are offered a humid hide will very rarely take a drink from its water bowl. Hogs will spend lots of time in their humid hides because that is where they need to be. It is all about offering options. Letting the snake chose what it needs instead of us forcing what we THINK they need on them.

I have given my reason for not recommending sphagnum moss as a humid hid substrate earlier on in this thread based on years of experience, trial and error, and experimenting. And the above is my reasoning on why hognose snakes and most other reptiles should have humid hides. I hope this helps.

 

[Gregg M]

:lol2: wasn't really after help but thank you anyway, I agree with most of that but find I can get the gradient required without the addition of a humid hide : victory: for me also from years of experience, trial and error. And now to bow out gracefully, wishing luck to all involved.

Well my post was not just for you. It was for everyone reading.

I do have one question for you though. And it goes back to what I said in the last post. How do you know what you are giving is indeed the required humidity gradient? Because you have hogs that have lived a few years without an apparent issue?

I understand that people are going to keep their animals the way they feel is right and there is more than one way to do things blah blah blah.... However, there are certain aspects that many keepers either don't know about or just simply ignore because they think what they are doing is good enough. For me, when I see a reptile species that is "supposed to like it hot and dry' use a cool humid hide pretty much daily it tells me a lot about what the species actually requires vs what we think they require. If a hognose really wanted hot, dry conditions, why else would they frequently use a humid hide? Maybe because they do not like it hot and dry all the time? I could be way off base here...

 

[Gregg M]

I'm not going to bite (again), but there are some very, very strange misconceptions about wetting, adsorption, absorption and humidity on here!

I'm almost tempted to explain, but it's really not worth the hassle.....

Teach us Jeffers. I for one am all ears. What are these "very, very strange misconceptions about wetting, adsorption, absorption and humidity"?

 

[Gregg M]

I don't want my "ego stroked" - if that was the case, I would have sent a detailed explanation about humidity etc. I really can't be bothered, though, as it will be a long post and the people it is aimed at don't want to hear it anyway!

Jeffers, I was being serious. If you have information that everyone here can use to better understand and can help with the care and health of our reptiles, it is a good idea to share the info. I have always said that I if someone has information that I am unaware of, I will soak it up like a sponge. Being that I have incubation products out, I have studied how humidity, condensation, ect, works in order to properly design my products. The thickness of the plastic we use, the height of the grid from the fill line, the spacing of the grid holes, and so on, were all designed based on humidity, airflow, and condensation build up. So your info may actually agree with what I am saying, but I do feel you should lay it out. Most of the time, what I say, people do not want to hear but I say it anyway because even if a couple of people want to hear it, it was well worth my effort to type it out.

 

[Gregg M]

You say you will soak the information up like a sponge, but does a sponge soak things up like coco fibre or sphagnum moss? Could I use a sponge in a humid hide? I hope Jeffers can clear this point up too :2thumb:

Stu, that pun may or may not have been intended when I wrote that. LOL. It was actually a happy accident.