Have personally not had an experience with Impaction but it does worry me greatly so will be following this thread with great interest

 

Following this.

You hear so many ''such and such had a snake die of impaction'' but yet, Ive not spoken/heard of any personal accounts of anything.

I use all sorts of substrate aswell.

 

Short of snakes eating entire pieces of kitchen roll (which does happen and can be lethal), I personally don't believe the risk is too great. In the wild they eat prey on the ground (for the most part) where it will be covered in dirt, grit, and possibly even leaves and small twigs. They can deal with it. I'm not saying to ignore the risk completely, but it's not something to stress over. Just use common sense

 

^^^^^ this. I'm sure they can handle a few stray bits of whatever. After all they digest bones, fur, claws, beaks etc. I'm sure a little strand of aspen or two is no drama.

 

My thinking is the same as above ! Snakes have been around for thousands of years before we came along and started keeping them as pets and started fretting about them becoming impacted. Nature finds a way and dealing with a little substrate is no problem for them

 

I don't doubt for one minute that it can happen, and would never dismiss another persons account, but in well over 20 years I have always kept my snakes on one type of bark or another, and always fed in the viv.

Some of my snakes have been very sedate drop feeders, eating off the lid of a container or flat rock, but others have been smash and grab killers, rolling their victims half way around the viv.
I can't believe that in all that time, one of them hasn't taken in some substrate along with its meal, and yet I haven't had any problems.

That doesn't mean I think its daft to take precautions, and for total peace of mind I would rather they were gentle and careful, but as we know that's not the nature of the beast.:blush:

 

'A swan can break your arm..!'

I think impaction stories are similar to those old wives tails, like above.

It can happen and there is a video on viperkeeper's channel, where a small viper has to have a piece of bark extracted from its stomach... But is so rare that it has become a common myth used to scare people into buying or using one type of substrate or another.

I still refuse to arm wrestle swans, though..

Tom

 

I suppose I'm really curious to know how many keepers come on with experiences of actual impactions that they know were impactions, this may give us an idea of whether it's rare, or is a likely possibility. I must say I don't give a lot of credence to the "they do it in the wild and survive" viewpoint, because snakes do all sorts of things in the wild, and they also die in the wild. I cut off the beaks and feet off chicks because I have experienced snakes getting internal scratches from sharp meals. Many people claim that because snakes do it in the wild that it's perfectly fine to do this for captive animals. I've seen a documentary where a rock python ate an antelope and the antelope's horns punctured the snakes skin and stuck out. The horns eventually fell off when the antelope was digested and the holes left by the horns healed over and the snake seemed fine and went about its business, seemingly none the worse for wear, however I wouldn't expect one of my captive snakes to try and attempt a meal like this. In nature snakes attack animals that can fight back with tooth and claw, and sometimes the snake loses, that's why sensible keepers try to avoid live feeding. When I'm caring for captive animals I'm trying to keep them as safe as possible and make my life and their lives as easy as possible, not recreate the perils of the wild. So if I can avoid impaction I will, but how much of a danger does it honestly present?

 

I cut off the beaks and feet off chicks because I have experienced snakes getting internal scratches from sharp meals. ?

and how do you know that?? do you x-ray your snakes???

 

I dunno is it just an urban myth - "don't do that could cause impaction"

on one hand our snakes are a bit wussy compared to their wild counterparts - but on the other indeed surely they would regularly take in bits of something with their dinner .......

 

I think we are the wussy ones with our snakes. They are just doing what they do with what we provide them..
I agree with OP in that the 'in wild' argument seems to ignore the extremely large number of snakes that die due to 'the wild'.. You only see photos of live ones acting naturally and even then is only a snap shot of their lives..

Is an interesting question and quite hard to actually discover the truth.

Tom

 

i brought an iguana from a reptile shop with a good reputation the iggy was small.
After i got the iggy home i noticed problems with the iggys breathing and the iggy wouldn't eat i was dropping pipettes of water in the iggys mouth one at a time, I took the iggy to the vets the vet didnt no what was wrong the kept the iggy in overnight and it died the vet done a pm and found an 6 impaction that was a couple months old it looked like it was actually from a fake plant the vet said.

this all happened in the space of 3 days and cost me alot of money in vet fees the biggest being a after hours call out.

to be honest it was a horrible experience and one i dont wish to revisit.

how ever that was with an iguana not a snake just thought i would share an impaction experience with you as you asked for one as for snakes i haven't had one thank god but i do make sure i am conscious of impaction for the future.

 

We could get an impaction from a plastic plant.. is not the same as a natural substance that can possibly be broken down by the body.

Sad story though and no doubt horrible experience.

Tom

 

There have been a few people on here lose snakes from impaction if I remember rightly. It's a small risk often blown out of proportion but it is still a risk worth keeping in mind, especially with snakes that aren't 100% healthy or are really small. It's not a big enough risk to necessitate keeping without substrate though, imo anyways.

 

What I meant by saying that they manage in the wild was that they must have evolved a mechanism to deal with it. Snakes have been around a very, very long time, and I don't think they would be as successful if they are if they keeled over whenever they ingested a bit of plant matter. I'm sure that some wild snakes do occasionally die from an impaction, but this number must be minuscule compared to how many don't. Some snakes live on the forest floor, and possibly ingest leaves every time they eat. If this was a genuinely dangerous occurrence for them, they'd be extinct.

Again, I'm just saying that one only need exercise common sense; don't dip the food in water and roll it around in the substrate so it all sticks to the fur, but don't stress about it either

 

1 - Juvenile checkered garter ingested piece of Aspen in 2008. Extensive bulge in stomach. Forced regurgitation required.

2 - Last year - customer of mine with 2.5month old Cali red-sided. Swallowed compressed paper pellet. Again required forced regurge.

My personal accounts - but I know of numerous others, inclusive of other species.
You can downplay impaction risk all you want, but it doesn't mean it's not there .... and yes, size of the snake/hydration levels/ etc all come into it but I don't think we can just be blase about it and just file it away. I'd rather go the extra mile to be careful and raise awareness than just allow people to ignore it.

 

Healthy, well heated and well hydrated reptiles will not become impacted. I have seen garter snakes pass pebbles after being caught. The truth is, impaction is caused by poor or incorrect husbandry. Substrates are not the issue. All of my snakes have swallowed aspen, sand, coco fiber, and assorted other substrates repeatedly. I feed in their cages and do not offer a plate or anything of the sort. Never had an issue with impaction. Our dwarf varanid rub their food in the dirt and they take a mouthful of dirt often. Again, no issues. If you have had a problem with impaction, better rethink your husbandry, not your substrate.

 

first off i dont plan on starting a massive rfuk argument here Gregg but i am curious as to why you said any impaction is a cause of poor husbandry.

I was always under the impression that if a snake gets impaction it is because it has swallowed something that is to big to pass and the snakes stomach acids have not broken it down properly there for it gets stuck and forms an impaction. i was told and read this several times in the past whilst researching how to care for my first snake.

None of my snakes have ever had an impaction like i said i had an iggy that did and the pm from the vet and the vet said the impaction had taken place before the iggy was in my care the vet also stated i couldn't have done anything the impaction was there before i had it in my care.

i understand completely that if a snake is not being kept properly it will be weaker and its body unable to fight things off or be working properly, This would increase the chances but if the reason for impaction is why i have been told then surely it could happen in a healthy snake??

 

I was enquiring about calci sand at my local rep shop, and one of the lads who works there (very experienced imo) warned me not to use it. He said because lizards will actively seek nutrients, they will eat it and die of impaction. Apparently someone brought a dead leopard gecko in and its stomach was blue from all the calci sand it had eaten.

 

But surely if the leo was actively seeking out the calcium in the sand it stands to reason that his owner wasnt giving him what he needed which would fall under 'bad' husbandry no?

 

My smaller babies are on kitchen roll and my bigger yearlings/sub adults are on aspen, I do keep an eye on them as they feed but mainly to make sure they don't grab mouthfuls of aspen along with the mouse, my MBK did this last time she fed, struck the mouth getting the head (as usual) but she then decided to drop it and grab it again though this time with a load of aspen as well, cue me picking out bits of aspen from her mouth without her eating me, she's a bit stupid bless her :lol2:

 

Snakes are carnivores, they cannot digest plant matter and most substrates we use are plant matter.

So yes, of course impaction can happen. All it will take is for an object that it cannot digest to obstruct the exit from the stomach and get stuck there. Maybe those whose snakes injest plant matter with their food and their snakes have never had a problem might like to consider that their snakes have just been lucky so far.

 

This is what i have been told many of times even by a reptile vet and some really experienced people and is why i am interested if there has been some sort of change in this since i have had a short break from keeping reptiles.

 

Can't help but feel that I, as a keeper, am caught in the middle. Should you provide your snake with a substrate it can burrow in (in the case of some snake) or should you deprive it of its natural behavior and prevent the risk of impaction.

 

I think its more a case in my opinion of accepting that its is possible for any snake to get and the majority of the time it passes through without a problem but there is a risk certain animals will always need substrates yes. But accepting it can happen i feel is important as posted about snakes don't feed on a separate surface in nature and a massive percentage is fine.

I mean i don't claim to have all the answers but as it stands these are my thoughts until convinced or proven otherwise.

Im am also not having a dig at anybodies keeping if what you have done for a long time is working keep it up i just find these type of threads interesting :2thumb:

 

I am not totally convinced that their digestive acids cant cope with some vegetable matter - they may not be able to make any useful nutritional use of it, but I am pretty sure they can break it down - unless it is very robust. I am not suggesting that impaction isn't a risk at all, but I also don't think that they cant cope with small amounts of substrate or other bits of matter on their food. I don't think they should be denied access to appropriate substrates - but a bit of care at feeding time doesn't go amiss

 

If any hot keepers are reading this, I would be very interested to hear what happens if you put some bedding in snake venom and see if it gets digested.

Personally, I don't think it will break it down since ruminants with a digestive system evolved to be vegetarian need 2 stomachs to break down things as simple as grass. I doubt a carnivore would do well with wood.

 

Dunno about snakes but my whites tree frogs regularly get a face full of dirt when pouncing on their food from a branch :bash:
They seem OK to me though :2thumb:

 

I notice we've had very few examples of actual experiences of snakes being impacted though:whistling2:

 

Have a look on google images under 'snake impaction'. Loads of images of operations to clear them... not only snakes though.

 

Snake Impaction
Interesting they say that proper humidity and temperature means less chance of this occurring.

A few interesting accounts of impaction on this link as well
http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/gene...ms/general-discussion/63157-impaction-due-substrate-ingestion-fact-fiction.html

 

I’ve had issues with aspen and feeding in the past. Both where caused by feeding dry defrost rodents that had somehow gathered aspen, whilst the snakes were constricting their prey. On both occasions, sharp pieces of aspen were lodged in the soft gum tissue in the snakes mouth.

On the first occasion, it was found too late and caused an infection which had to be cleaned and treated with antibiotics. The following day, I found another snake with the same issue, but fortunately removed the substrate and cleaned the areas, before any potential infection had started. I moved all my animals off aspen and now selectively use unprinted newspaper.

So, feeding on aspen (or any other similar substrate that can contain sharp pieces) can potentially be harmful to reptiles from my experience. I was fortunate that on both occasions, I could see the issues and resolve. However, if the impaction is caused internally, there’d be no way of knowing until it’s too late.

I guess it’s no different to getting a splinter. If the splinters not removed – it will become infected !

 

So really and there has not been enough studies done to achieve a set in stone answer. Its something in snake keeping i havent had to deal with. Only the iguana incident.
Even with the links that have been posted i still think abit of caution doesn't go amiss, Even in the most healthy well kept animals.
Maybe i am wrong for being cautious but i still think the chance out ways not being.

 

Even with the links that have been posted i still think abit of caution doesn't go amiss, Even in the most healthy well kept animals.
Maybe i am wrong for being cautious but i still think the chance out ways not being.

You can wrap your snakes in bubble wrap and keep them in padded cages for all I care. The problem I have is when people put out info based on their own personal fears instead of putting out info based on fact.

 

This thread is very interesting. It does seem to resolve around the fact that breaking something down and digesting it are very different beasts. I believe that the snakes can break it down and pass most things assuming their temperature and hydration levels are correct. Same is true of lizards too. However, I supervise all my feedings, tweezers in hand so that when my hognose has chewed the mouse enough to get blood everywhere and then rolled it in her aspen I can pluck the aspen off on the way down. It might be overkill, but the little love is a poor feeder and that's the only way I can get her to eat - it normally takes at least an hour!