Just to pull the other thread in as it has quite a bit of useful info and viewpoints on the issue.

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/lizards/1151986-substrates-myth-impaction.html

Its a common issue and widely misunderstood, people hear of impaction and blame it immediately on loose substrate, but theres much more to it.

Its not the substrate, its the care that actually creates the situation that the substrate can then lead to impaction, and more people really need to get to grips with this and learn about it.

Removing the loose substrate only has a negative impact, and if the care is not correct, those environmental issues will simply cause problems elsewhere (dehydration, incorrect heat, poor diet etc can ALL have far, far more serious implications if left unchecked).

 

I have asked Stephen P to sticky my post & also add it to the snake section as a sticky.

 

Done.

We'll wait a few days and if there are no more comments/additions we can delete the last few discussion posts and then lock so it is there for information purposes in both Sections.

 

Thank you for this. I am certainly one of those new-ish to reptiles that heard the word impaction and freaked out. I previously tried to avoid any possibility of it via substrate. Saying that though, when I first got my beardie she was on aspen bedding and I did catch her eating it the first week, snatched it from her mouth and removed it completely as I panicked. I did research online and it is all very contradicting, seems you can't do right from wrong no matter your exprrience, so I took the safer option.
I have recently been working on making her tank more of a natural habitat for her and I appreciate the knowledge this forum has provided to me, even though it may contradict any previous research I had done on my own.

I don't have anything else to add but just wanted to say thanks and spiel my heart out lol.

 

steak me to a post

sadly i use 2 types of sub straight on my base floor mostly i use Beach chips or shredded corn, i tend to keep away from sand, i find the beach absorbs any feces and neutralizes any smells. the corn is meant to be the perfect substrate as the dragons can digest it but having but is hard to keep clean so should the dragon eat it makes me wonder what is on what they eat.
i am moving to a mix of sand and topsoil using uv lighting so it stays moist.
i am testing 1ooo luminous LED over a peat bed to see the drying affect i plan to test with my bearded dragons as this would make the vivarium very bright like full sunlight. these light look good for lighting as they are 10w and cool to the touch after 10 hours on but not good for basking.

 

sadly i use 2 types of sub straight on my base floor mostly i use Beach chips or shredded corn, i tend to keep away from sand, i find the beach absorbs any feces and neutralizes any smells. the corn is meant to be the perfect substrate as the dragons can digest it but having but is hard to keep clean so should the dragon eat it makes me wonder what is on what they eat.
i am moving to a mix of sand and topsoil using uv lighting so it stays moist.
i am testing 1ooo luminous LED over a peat bed to see the drying affect i plan to test with my bearded dragons as this would make the vivarium very bright like full sunlight. these light look good for lighting as they are 10w and cool to the touch after 10 hours on but not good for basking.

Sand & soil is an excellent choice. Or you could use one of the prepackaged substrates specially for beardies & other desert/steppe species.

 

am i on the right track

Is this the sort of thing i should be looking at for substrate ?

https://beardeddragonforum.com/threads/bioactive-soil-as-a-substrate-choice.11152/

 

Is this the sort of thing i should be looking at for substrate ?

https://beardeddragonforum.com/threads/bioactive-soil-as-a-substrate-choice.11152/

That would be excellent, but you don't have to go bioactive if you don't want to- you can just use a sand/soil mix, or a packaged beardie/desert substrate.

 

I put this together it is made of polystyrene and grouted then painted and coated with mod podge the bowl is 18" square and around 8" deep i plan to test mixes of eco earth soil and sand in my new viv to see if the mix dries out and how long it will go before it starts to turn dusty, my plan is to put it in the cool side with a 1,000 lumens LED above for light and no extra heat.
I tested the light over damp eco earth for 48 hours and it did not dry out at all and when i touched the light it was not even warm.

once i find a good mix i can do thw whole floor with around 5" deep if you have experience with this any help would be appreciated.

 

Personally I prefer not to use bioactive with terrestrial based setups because I remain unsure about the effects of laying across a substrate consistently crawling with small microcleanups. When I tried this with some snakes I found they ended up spending an unusually large amount of time soaking in there water dishes which I have only ever seen prior with infestations of mites. I once had a spring tail run across my hand and it itched like hell, so for me, without really knowing whether it is annoying them I opt for plain substrates with animals that will spend 50% or more time on the surface. In the wild they will utilise a variety if terrains and surfaces for varying reasons, I can imagine it is possible with some well positioned higher elevations in cage decor but in my experience I still found mine spent more time comfortably laying across the surface.

That said mostly all my arboreal to semi arboreal setups are all bio. Since they do not spend any signficant amount of time on the surface due to the more important resources like heat, light and UV being mounted above I do not have this concern and thus far have seen no ill effect from using it.

Bioactive enclosures are wonderful when properly done and laid out but I personally feel there is a “lazy attitude developing to clean up in its name with little consideration to how animals may actually feel being crawled all over at night” I still have to go into my enclosures to replace water and refurnish, cleaning a bit if poop with a paper towel or shovel and spot cleaning, in my opinion is not really the end of the world and much more comfortable for a certain set of animals.

Admittedly I have never tried it with beardies but I have managed to gain just as much pleasure recreating a semi natural landscape which is both functional and aesthetically pleasing with plain simple substrates and artifical decor. : victory:

 

that makes sense, could you give me some idea of what i should be looking at doing?
I was planning on using topsoil eco earth and play sand, what quantities of each do you recommend and should i water it or leave it dry.
as far as cleaning goes can it be put through a sieve or should it be changed at regular intervals?

 

I have used mostly all common brands with good effect in differing ways but top soil and play sand mixtures are probably the most natural and functional. I use roughly a 6 to 4 part top soil to sand mix, you can play around adding a little or reducing a little depending on your aim You can use cocofiber but tbh it would probably be more cost effective to just buy a big bag of top soil from the garden center.

 

thats what mine looks like it starting to do, though its still not completely dried out but starting to see the forming of lots of little brown balls... dont want to add anything else yet as its taken long enough for this to dry out, trial and error with lots of waiting time involved it seems

 

To me that would be a case of not pressing it down firmly enough, tiny little balls is fine, what you do want to avoid is large slab like sections which is what i got with too much clay base.

Its a balancing act, you dont want it turning to dust (not enough clay, too much sand) but you dont want a slab base either (too much clay and soil)

 

what texture do i want when adding water

 

I take it i will need to line the bottom of my wooden vivarium before putting this in?
would this be ok put together with aquarium silicone and topped off with an edging
being twin wall it may even give me some insulation as viv is on the floor
4mm Clear Polycarbonate Sheet

 

Are we saying that ingested wooden bark such as orchid bark now pose no problems for impaction ??

I'm sure I read somewhere that whilst snakes can digest bones , beaks and feathers they can't digest wood !!?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

What we are saying is that you have to consider the animal you are getting and get a substrate thats suitable for it.

Orchid bark isnt suitable for a beardie, and from what you say wood chips in general arent good for snakes, but some types of gecko will do well on them.

You need to think about the environment they come from, and choose something that matches that kind of environment.
Heavily wooded areas like dense forest, orchid bark is going to be something that might feature, dry desert like environments, then sand or sand/soil, wet marsh like areas, things like peat or coco fibre mixes.

 

I'm new to reptiles, but I've kept other exotics. The first thing I did when researching ackie monitors was buy a book by and Aussie vet. All he uses is sand, for his MANY species. He's been a reptile vet for many years. He seems to think many cases of reptile impaction is caused by low heat, that they need proper heat to digest and pass waste. In the tarantula community you'll be shouted down for using it...funny, I used to chase tarantulas through the desert as a kid..the sandy desert, where they feed...

 

Oz is pretty high clay content yes, but its also more often dry than wet, and when it rains, you get slurry/mud foraperiod which is then baked hard again.


I think what the concern raised to you may be is that if its too consistantly wet, then its an issue.


You might expect a coupleof days a month where its sodden, then dry/arid for the rest, so a bit like in a sense with cresties who love moisture, too wet too often causes problems.


I dont keep ackies, theres a few on here that do, and even breed them, it would be better to ask them, but from what i understand, the substrate needs are very similar to beardies if not the same.
You want a good open space, humidity around 40% in the far cool end, big widebasking area (thats then significantly lower humidity), the option to dig and burrow and then the majority of the surface being dry and firm, but as i said, thats if i am right to think its the same/similar to a beardie.

 

that makes sense, could you give me some idea of what i should be looking at doing?
I was planning on using topsoil eco earth and play sand, what quantities of each do you recommend and should i water it or leave it dry.
as far as cleaning goes can it be put through a sieve or should it be changed at regular intervals?

 

I think the best bet is always going to be A) Use a similar substrate to what your reptile is exposed to in its natural environment. B) Don’t cover your reptiles food in copious amounts of substrate.

Simple really and mostly common sense.

 

Per requestoes Loose Substrate Cause Impaction In Bearded Dragons & Other Reptiles

https://youtu.be/IQPEA6qxz7w

 

I’m glad I read this, otherwise I probably would’ve kept my leopard gecko on tile. Like someone else said above, I just heard about impaction and panicked a little, and chose to put her on tile. Then I read that geckos like to dig and I felt awful that she couldn’t. Hopefully now I can change that. Another thing people say is that you should completely avoid loose substrate with leopard geckos while they’re babies? My leo is just over 2 months old. Should I wait till she’s fully grown or is that also a myth? I’m new to reptile keeping

 

Realistically it doesn't matter what age they are, so long as they are healthy and the setup is correct, loose substrate is fine.

In practice, it is best to quarantine any new animal for up to 6 months in a sterile setup for a couple of reasons

1. You want to know the animal is healthy and not hiding any underlying illness. With Reptiles, they can hide an illness for quite a while. Sterile setups ensure you can easily obtain fecal samples for fecal tests, and monitor the animal better
2. If you are new to keeping especially, it is best to remain sterile for a while to ensure you have setup the heating and lighting correctly, along with maintaining the other parameters. Failure to get this right is what will lead to impaction. Once you are certain everything is right and stable, its not an issue.

Other than that, as long as you are happy parameters are correct and the animal is healthy, there's no reason not to use more natural substrates and decor.

 

thanks, this is helpful. I’ll definitely keep her on tile for a little longer, and I keep kitchen paper where she goes to toilet so it’s easy to monitor everything, as well as keep it clean

 

A lot of times impaction is caused by inadequate husbandry practices. If an animal is hydrated and being kept in the proper environment as far as temperatures go the chances of impaction go down tremendously. You also got to use the proper substrate for the animal you are keeping which also goes along with husbandry. If a snake happens to get a piece of mulch or bark when feeding it has a greater chance of passing this when those conditions are met. In the wild I am sure animals swallow substrate a lot and pass it fine because they are in the correct environment. You reach for the same in captivity and your going to have an animal able to pass the majority of what it eats whether it is food or not. Uromastyx in the wild have been found to eat a tremendous amount of substrate when feeding and pass it just fine.

That being said sometimes it does happen. To large a piece goes down funny and can not pass, inadequately hydrated animal causing the foreign object to not be able to pass through the digestive tract, unhealthy animal that just is not strong enough to pass it, etc. A lot of the cases of impaction are from leopard geckos and bearded dragons. If you think about it and I hate to say this a lot of these animals are acquired by people that provide sub par conditions for the animal which could aid in the impaction forming in the gut.

 

I want to clarify something that has been suggested in this old thread, that is that snakes (other reptiles?) can digest feathers, beaks (and I`m including fur) the fact is no animal can digest feathers, fur or the keratin in beaks, of course they can digest the bones.

 

I’ve heard that calci sand isn’t even sand?? True or false?

also how is play sand any more digestible or safe? I’m genuinely asking. It won’t dissolve or anything, right?

 

Yes, that's true- it's synthetic sand.
Real sand won't partially dissolve & clump in the gut like calci sand will.

 

I know this is unrelated but the debate of impaction and sand reminds me of a clip from Malcom In The Middle where the military school cadets argue about being able to eat 100 marshmallow peeps, and whether or not they would expand in your stomach.

 

Also there is a video by SomethingElseYT called Talking To Crazy People where a guy says “don’t eat the sand, or it’s game over!”