and plan to move my Adult Ball down from the slightly too large 4ft viv into a more fitting 3 ft Viv.

No viv is too large for a royal...

Leave him in his 4' viv.

If by Boa you are referring to a normal common boa then a 6' x 2' x 2' viv will be required by the time the snake is 24-36 months old, especially if it's female.

Personally I feel that if you haven't got room to give your snakes the largest possible vivarium that's equal in length to the snakes length then don't get the snake. - That my opinion.

I have an adult female royal that's 4' in length, and upwards of 2.2Kg. No way would I move here from her 4' viv into a 3' viv.

 

Agreed, mine are in 6x3x2. Prior to that I was using 4x2x2 for adults.

 

down force issues usually cause problems with glass removal in the cage under most weight, but other than this there shouldn't be any stability issues (with well made cages)

to help bypass this put small feet on the 3 footers near the outside corners, this displaces the weight and prevents cage top sagging.

rgds
ed

 

Thank you for such prompt replies,

There seems to be some controversy with adult ball python vivarium sizes, some say 3ft vivs are sufficient, I respect that no viv is too big for a ball python (Proving there is ample hiding and cover provided).

However Many highly regarded breeders keep adult balls in tubs no where near as big as a 4ft viv and arn't even given opportunities to explore out of their Tub/Rub as they would with someone who regarded the animal more as a pet than one of thousands. I do handle my animals and give them opportunities to roam (supervised).

As at the moment this is only an idea, nothing is set in stone. The Boas I am interested in are Guyana Red tails, i have read several care sheets and as usual different sites and boa owners/breeders recommend different vivarium sizes for adults. Would the Boa need 3 stages of vivarium size, e.g from small to medium to large?

I have however seen many sites and people with high ratings on the Reptile Forums UK say 4x2x2 would be sufficient for an adult Boa providing you're not power feeding and trying to break records hitting that myth of the 12ft red tail. Considering as you said a large vivarium would be needed once the Boa is around 24-32 months old, this would be a fair few years in the future where i am most likely going to be able to get a 6x2x2 if needs be.

The 4ft Vivarium I have been talking about is this :
https://www.reptiles.swelluk.com/vivexotic-repti-home-maxi-vivarium-xl-beech/

Dimensions:
L137.5cm x D49cm x H56cm (54.1 x 19.3 x 22")

Any links to where to buy 6ft vivariums made by well known companies? Walnut finish if possible?

Thank you for your advice, greatly appreciated!

 

However Many highly regarded breeders keep adult balls in tubs no where near as big as a 4ft viv and arn't even given opportunities to explore out of their Tub/Rub as they would with someone who regarded the animal more as a pet than one of thousands. !

Yes.. but that's a case of necessity - the key word being breeders. As breeders they need to produce and sell a high volume of offspring, so need a high number of stock animals. To fit the highest number of animals in a given space they stick them in racks of small plastic trays or RUBs. We banned battery hen farming years ago.... but it seems fine for reptile breeders to do the same.

The old ethics with viv vs rub debate will go on for however long we are legally allowed to keep our own snakes in a domestic environment. But IMO, other than for temporary transportation, or the first few weeks as hatchlings where the snake could escape from a normal viv, it's cruel to confine a large snake to a small tub and keep it in the dark where it only sees light when water is changed or food offered.

If you want to keep your snakes in a rack then there is nothing us lot can do to stop you. Bear in mind that rack system have their own issues, and you'll need to keep the room. But the choice is yours, and whilst I and others may have opinions as to how best to house snakes, that's all they are, opinions.

 

I have always started my boas when I’ve had them less than a year old in a 3ft and worked up,my 7ft female is in a 6ft and I do get her out regular for exercise purposes.
as you say there is a massive urban legend about all boas being these 12ft beasties
I think the Guyana your thinking of getting would be fine in an eventually 6ft viv
A 4ft would be fine for quite a few years

I brought my 6ft off Preloved was hardly used but not seen many more available,I just upgraded one of my boas from a 3ft to a 4ft last week and was £79.99 they do 4 colours in it on ebay,them swell reptile ones look good too
Hope this helps


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

 

Thank you once again everyone for your constructive opinions and advice,

Malc I completely agree with you, the way these animals are bred on a mass scale is insensitive to the quality of life for the animal. But this is where I'm just noting the two sides of the coin.

on one side you have millions of snakes in very small rubs, on the other im sure almost just as many are in forever homes in nice vivariums. I have no intention of starting a rack system as I will always consider these animals as pets and not numbers. The idea is that, if we know these animals live healthily in very small rack systems surely a 3ft viv for an adult Ball with regular handling and opportunities for exploration out of the enclosure really isnt a massive step down from a 4ft. Its an interesting debate that will go on for years as you've said.

One thing that is great is the sheer mass of people who have accounts with RFUK, so many people very passionate about their animals, and from what ive seen a lot of people can't stop asking questions...Me Myself included. As im sure the majority of us just want to do the best we can keeping these animals. I've definitely got "The Bug" im completely fascinated by snakes.

Once again many thanks to everyone on the thread. :2thumb:

 

Oh I agree there is always two sides to everything, and there will be followers in both camps on any subject.

Bottom line is, that if you want to confine you royal to a 3' viv then that's your prerogative. Nothing I or anyone else for that matter say can dictate what you do. There are a lot of folk on here (used to be ten times as active a decade back) and we are all passionate about the reptiles we keep, and the way we keep them. There is no right way of doing things, but there are plenty of wrong ways. I mean a royal will function in a rub, it will eat, poo, urinate, and breed, but does that mean it has a fulfilled life ?

Anyway... keep asking questions, and I'm sure you'll get a ton of responses, all differing as we all have our own opinions and experiences. Just because I advocate keeping an royal in a 48" x 30" x 18" (LxHxD) vivarium with large stout branches for climbing (yes Royals love to climb, they lack the dexterity of a GTP but they manage it), doesn't mean that this is the only way of keeping them. But it's something that I always promote because it's based on my experience of keeping these snakes some 30 years. Others will have 10, 20 or 30+ years experience and will have kept them in totally differing ways. We share our opinions and experiences and then it's down to you what methods or ways suits your needs, often being a mix from all

 

I don't think 3 foot with handling equates to the experience of living in a 4 foot viv, for a royal python. Your snake might tolerate handling but as far as we know, it is unlikely to particularly enjoy or appreciate it, and it could be the reverse - going off food is a feature of the species and often it looks as if not leaving them in peace enough is the culprit. Similarly, being allowed to go explore for most royals and indeed most snakes results in their looking for the nearest dark tight corner to hide themselves in.

Of course, many tolerate handling without issue, and I hope that's the case for yours. But based on what we know about them, I think given the choice between a 3 foot vivarium with the additional stress of regular handling, versus a 4 foot vivarium, the latter looks like it would be more attractive.

I'm not against handling snakes, not even royals if they're doing well, but I think it always has to be done conscious of the fact that it's the human who is getting the enjoyable, positive experience out of it and not the snake, and therefore I believe we should moderate it accordingly. I don't think the OP is necessarily seeing this 3 foot vs 4 foot debate from the snake's point of view (as far as that is possible).

 

Excellent responses as always, like you said everyone has their own opinions running of varied years of experience, and its my job to absorb as much of it as possible and make the best decision i feel i can.

Luckily both my balls are in perfect health and have never been otherwise, ....eat, poop and shed like clock work, no feeding strikes or aggression.

Regarding handling, my experience is that both my pythons are unphased by it, we handle them once or twice a week and its most often the case that they prefer to find a warm cozy spot between me and my girlfriend as apposed to trying to maneuver away from us, neither are head shy or jumpy and actually usually when i put either of them on the bed as I clean out their enclosures they will often slither on over to me and try to climb me. Just my experience though, maybe im lucky, im sure it could go the other way and have very aggressive snakes.

 

Like the other things mentioned, handling is also a contentious issue. My experience and opinion is that no snake seeks out petting and handling the way a dog or cat will, and that they tolerate it to varying degrees. Yes leave the viv doors open and the snake will venture out, but is this interpreted as wanting to come out and interact with the owner, or just that its found a gap and instinctively explores that avenue. For those snakes that are lifted out from their secure hide, then some degree of stress will be induced, again the snake will either tolerate this, or turn to fight or flight depending on the species and individuals.

For me I only handle the snakes when I need to intervene, such as a poor shed, treatment needs to be applied, as part of the regular cleaning maintenance schedule, or if (on rare occasions) I yield to pressure to show the snake to a visitor. But like I said, we all have differing view points.

 

While like you, I hardly ever actually "handle" my animals, my personal findings with the snakes I have kept over the years have been just the opposite.
I have had one very notable exception, but every other snake I have had apart from her, has seemed to relish free roaming.
I don't pester them while they are out but leave them to their own devices, and I see no fight or flight reactions (with the exception of a skip dropped off in the street, which literally made a corn jump! :gasp
I don't remove them from their vivs, but leave the door open, but many of my snakes have already been waiting at the glass of their (larger than "average") vivs when I come into the room any way.
I don't have shedding issues, or feeding issues, or any other health issues at all!
Just lucky I guess?