I wrote a letter years ago to the rspca.They said it wasn't actually illegal but its illegal to cause pain and suffering to an animal with a spinal cord so someone shouldn't do it.It's been years now i'm not sure if things have changed and how accurate that info was.

 

yep it is an offense to cause pain and suffering to any vertebrate

 

yep it is an offense to cause pain and suffering to any vertebrate

All my exes were spineless :whistling2:

 

I only ever feed live animals. Dead ones don't seem to need the calories!

 

haha :lol2:

 

No one has been prosecuted for it, however the official stance on it is that it is illegal to cause unnecessary suffering to any vertebrate. Whether live feeding would qualify as suffering, let alone unnecessary, I do not think has ever been legally tested in the UK so is pretty wide open. It would have to go through the courts under animal cruelty.

It seems extremely unlikely that it would be deemed unnecessary if the snake required that food to live; and ultimately if a snake is killing a mouse it is usually a quick death. If however you left a live mouse in with a snake without food or water (such as a newborn pinkie/fuzzy that can't survive without its mother) and let it die slowly of starvation or temperature deterioration then perhaps they would have a case. Eventually we will find out for sure I suppose but until a court case goes forward a lot of laws are simply open to interpretation.

Certainly the way that a lot of idiots do it on youtube - putting up videos of animals being livefed because it's "funny" and "entertaining", poking and prodding and laughing as they go, really pisses me off. I was very close to spending thousands of pounds on importing some bearded dragons from a seller in America before I went to their youtube channel and saw that they threw in live anoles with bearded dragons for a "treat", and videoed it for hits on the internet. Including some videos of anoles who were not killed quickly, definitely alive for some minutes, broken and suffering and absolutely in pain.. I would not support that kind of breeder, I do not see any need for that.

 

its a grey area
But as i set its not illegal
If you go by the "5 freedoms", and interpret them literally, it could be seen as illegal not to do so
My opinion, its part of rep keeping

 

If you go by the "5 freedoms", and interpret them literally, it could be seen as illegal not to do so

i do not agree that it would be "reasonable" to make it a requirement of the five freedoms, not that they are law anyway.

but, laws require that "a reasonable" assumption is made, the law almost always requires that any decision be that of a "reasonable man", forcing an animal to be killed slowly (relative to the means we have) would not be considered a "reasonable" approach by any stretch of the imagination.

 

Subject has been debated time and time again. It really boils down to which animal is suffering... You could argue that the snake is suffering as it's not eating, so by feeding it live rodents you are not letting the snake suffer. But if it did go to court you would have to prove that you had tried every possible alternative methods of feeding, and feeding live was the last resort.

 

Not this again. My opinion....I don't often comment as reading a lot of threads people have very different views on topics and will not accept any other opinion but I'll have a go and see where it gets me. Live feeding in my opinion is part of owning reptiles in general. I don't agree with it but with snakes, hatchlings, fasting males and females that have just laid it is one of those things you have/might do to keep your animals healthy and start to feed again. Personally I'm not bothered either way (my royals are defrost mainly). A mouse, rat or multi dead or alive is food and that's that. No personal attatchment should be made as it should be with the animal you own. I have travelled a lot and have friends that own shops in holland and Germany and if you ask for defrost they will laugh at you. Just doesn't happen often but they do it for the British buyers that go to hamm etc. the next "live" question is feeding lizards crickets, meal worms etc. that's fine as they are crickets??? To the point live happens and won't ever change (just look at some of the classifieds). And I've got a lot of adopted snakes that for some reason wouldn't take defrost to start with.....strange??? As long as it's not for you tube or because you think your "well ard" in front of your mates live feeding your snakes is personal preferance. Right I'll expect backlash now. Thanks for taking an hour of your life to read this.

 

My opinions on the topic are very much the same as yours, thanks for your input.

 

it's not illegal provided you don't allow unnecessary suffering of the prey animal.
i don't do it- all mine are on frozen.
i don't think it's unethical if you have to do it, ie the snake will only take live prey.
i do think it's unethical to do it by preference over feeding dead prey to a snake that feeds perfectly well on dead prey, because it is then unnecessary to subject live prey to the terror of being hunted.

 

I dont like it, but if a snake will only eat live, then i understand, but if any of mine were to only eat live i would have to rehome it, i just couldnt feed live myself.

 

Exactly the same for me.

 

legally, its very much a grey area. however given the rise in reptile keeping's popularity and the large number or morons it seems to be attracting in the process, i cant see it staying that way for long.

ethically, my personal opinion is that if the snake will take defrost, it should be fed defrost. easier for the keeper, better for the feeder animal (done ethically) and safer for the snake. while i wouldnt be keen on doing it, i'd live feed a snake before i'd force feed.

i do think it's resorted to far too quickly these days in the case of non feeders. i saw someone suggest it for an adult male royal that hadnt eaten in a whole three months, not loosing weight and generally in good health...

 

I would feed live if it came to it but would try every little trick in the book before hand.

But I have been to peoples houses and they straight up admit they did not try fresh killed or brained rats before feeding live. Think a lot of people and breeders rush into it either through lack of knowledge of other methods or just laziness. I would feel comfortable killing my own mice but feeding live it something I would not feel comfortable doing as it is not always as quick as people on here have made out, listening to a mouse squeal as it slowly dies is not for me no matter how much people say its just nature. Dont often see it on this country but many Americans seem to agree with live feeding for whatever reasons, seen a couple people justify it because it promotes activity

Dont think it would bother me if it was or wasn't legal, as others have said if the welfare of the animal is slipping I would rather bend the rules a little to ensure it was healthy.

 

Is live feeding better than fresh killed (for the rodent I mean)?
Is it better (for the rodent) to give a live rodent to a snake for the snake to kill or is it better (for the rodent) to be killed (pick a method) then offered to the snake whilst still kicking it's death throws?

 

no. a swift, humane kill is better than being throttled by a snake.

 

It's amazing that we are supposed to share a common interest yet when a new thread is posted 90% of people start acting like children and squabble on here.

Snakes have evolved to be efficient, silent killers without limbs and prey doesn't suffer as it doesn't see it coming. We seem preoccupied by how "humane" food should be treated yet treat our own terribly.

Pigs, sheep and cows get hung upside down before being electrocuted then get their throats slit and 99% of the time are very much alive when this happens as nothing is full proof but my personal favourite is chickens. Getting their heads cut off isn't quick enough for us so first we ram an electrode down their throats and electrocute the heart then slit their throats as this is the most "humane" way.

My point is personal attachment to food and what we deem as acceptable in certain circumstances. And I'm sure that some people just start threads like this just to cause trouble.

 

I did expect this to turn out badly too!

 

if your reptile won't eat frozen thawed,then feed live or your neglecting the reptile

i have no moral issues with live feeding

i prefer frozen thawed,as there's no risk to the snake

feeding live always has a chance the prey will bite causing damage



cheers shaun

P.S. Nelly you bad man you :lol2: (i agree with you mate)

 

this old subject again, its just like the rub vs viv one, comes around every month or so

some of mine are on live and theyre healthy, my view is

causing unnecessary suffering would be to like break a rodents leg so it cant try and escape the snake, why break the food chain if the RSPCA gave a S:censor: they would make everyone in this world a vegetarian

i also think that its a last resort, but after so long of feeding a few of mine live, if someone makes it a law to stop im either going to court for breaking that law or im going to the court after the RSPCA with prosecute me for causing unnecessary harm to my snake

 

short of breeding yourself, where do you actually get live food from ? Is it like getting dodgy magazines 30 years ago(.... no, I never did this !!) ? Is it an "under the counter" type scenario at a dodgy shop after closing hours ? Never seen any for sale !

 

same, I have never seen live food sold other than at expensive prices for pet purposes

 

there are always some around, its not you in the wrong to buy a pet from a pet shop for food, it is the pet shop that shouldnt sell to you for that reason, what they dont know cant hurt them

 

Good discussion...
Go back 20 years or so and frozen food was not as easy to get nowadays, especially the bigger stuff.
Buy the biggest rat in the pet shop, swift crack on the neck/back of head.
No need to defrost.

Would never put one in live, unethical? I didn't think so..

 

but then to add another bit of discussion to this thread, some snakes are so stubborn and will need live food, and ive found that on some of them after the first live feeding or the first couple, they take F/T afterwards

what about people that own snakes and want to feed live just cuz they can, people find out, people complain, threads like this get started, do we think these people might be making it a bit harder to obtain live food?

 

Hopefully.

 

I bought a young snake about 2 months ago and I had it delivered from Hamm last Sunday
But only a few days ago I found out he is on live mice.

I am mad about this snake so I thought, that is fine, and I went and got myself a few young live mice a week ago in case I have to feed him live. (Breeder recommended feed him live 3 -4 times, once he settles to new environment to try frozen)

But quite simply, I have come to the conclusion I won't be able to do it. i am not a rodent person but they are so cute.... I am not cut for it. I am not against feeding live IF it is is done because the snake won't have it any other way, but I think feeding live prey it's not for everyone.

I am just now looking for good threads/tips on "infallible" methods to convert snakes from live to frozen straight away...

 

I bought a young snake about 2 months ago and I had it delivered from Hamm last Sunday
But only a few days ago I found out he is on live mice.

I am mad about this snake so I thought, that is fine, and I went and got myself a few young live mice a week ago in case I have to feed him live. (Breeder recommended feed him live 3 -4 times, once he settled to new environment to try frozen)

But quite simply, I have come to the conclusion I won't be able to do it. i am not a rodent person but they are so cute.... I am not cut for it. I am not against feeding live IF it is is done because the snake won't have it any other way, but I think feeding live prey it's not for everyone.

I am just now looking for good threads/tips on "infallible" methods to convert snakes from live to frozen straight away...

string a F/T mouse to the live ones tail :2thumb:

 

Alternatively, when you think the snake is ready to eat, move the live mice near to the snake (or vice versa) but out of the line of sight. Leave for a while and when he is good and worked up, try offering a frozen/thawed mouse which you've just poured hot water over.

 

Funnily enough, I was thinking around those lines too. Since I have the live mice at home, I may as well use them to scent the room and "awake" his appetite. Not sure if I am confident to put the live too close to him though, in case I don't see him coming, but I'll keep it as an option.....

Or I may throw to his enclosure the empty nest the mice are using at the moment, I bet that smell delicious to him!!! lol

Hope you get him on frozen soon, i couldnt do it either, poor snake would starve while its food live in total luxuary :blush:

I know. Me too... I hope some of tricks I am going to try will work well.

 

many snakes that seem to only eat live, just need the right heat signature (so 39C for rat), and the movement, twitching movements followed by moving it away from the snake almost always brings a good strike

there are a few exceptions for sure...but imo those exceptions are fewer than we tend to imagine - getting the temp right in the first place is where most people seem to fail imo, to get a snake interested, i'm sure a hot and tasty looking 39C rat gets their appetites wetted better than a soggy 24C slightly warm one.

 

I think that you should stop with all of the snake things until your at least 42 because your just not experienced enough and you snakes will die young.
sorry for the bad news

 

:censor: off!

 

As first posts go - that one's pretty much up there!