Though I am not sure why, snakes do not appear to be as badly affected by inbreeding as mammals. Some problems that have been reported following intense and excessive inbreeding (breeding sibling to sibling and/or parent to offspring for multiple generations) include reduced fertility, reduced hatch-rate and increased chance of deformities, as well as smaller offspring, though you're average corn will not affected by these symptoms. Yes, inbreeding is involved in 'fixing' all recessive morphs, but before long lines are crossed and the gene pool is largely maintained.

In short, in less you plan to breed yourself, you needn't be concerned, and if you do plan to breed just use common sense.

Corn snakes are an excellent choice by the way, really lovely creatures

 

In short, in less you plan to breed yourself, you needn't be concerned, and if you do plan to breed just use common sense.

Corn snakes are an excellent choice by the way, really lovely creatures

I definitely don't plan on breeding. I will have enough time and money to lavish a lot of care and attention onto one snake, but not enough to care for a brood of wiggly little hatchlings! Let alone the space for it!

I just want to make sure that buying a 'pretty' snake will not put me at risk of buying an unhealthy snake.

And thanks- they do seem adorable, and everybody seems to agree that they are good for novices.

The only issue I can think of with corn snakes is the stargazer gene. Its a neurological issue which originally came from the sunkissed morph but now pops up here and there due to breeding het stargazer snakes. It is rare though and most good breeders who deal with sunkissed snakes have them tested.

Yeah, I've read about this. I've been meaning to ask- if a snake has this gene, does it suffer? Or is it just in need of a bit of extra care? Also, if somebody sold a snake carrying the gene, would it be possible to take the snake back? Or would it be obvious from the start that there was something wrong with it?

 

Inbreeding in reptiles isn't as big a deal as it is in mammals. At some point all corns morphs have inbred relatives, its how the new morphs are made. Generally its acceptable to say breed an unrelated pair and keep a hatchling, then breed that baby back to one of its parents to finally get the desired morph. You definitely don't get the range of genetic problems you do with dogs ie hip dysplasia, eye problems etc. And good breeders don't reproduced from snakes with deformities.
The only issue I can think of with corn snakes is the stargazer gene. Its a neurological issue which originally came from the sunkissed morph but now pops up here and there due to breeding het stargazer snakes. It is rare though and most good breeders who deal with sunkissed snakes have them tested.

 

The golden rule I was taught was to ensure the snakes you are pairing have different grand-parents. For this reason, I have always deemed it sensible to by each individual of a pair you intend to breed from different breeders which should go a long way to ensuring that this is the case.

 

I just want to say, Ratboy, that there is something hypnotically terrifying about that picture in your sig. :gasp:

 

LOL... Don't try and out stare him.... you'll lose

 

Yeah, I've read about this. I've been meaning to ask- if a snake has this gene, does it suffer? Or is it just in need of a bit of extra care? Also, if somebody sold a snake carrying the gene, would it be possible to take the snake back? Or would it be obvious from the start that there was something wrong with it?

As far as I'm aware (and I've only seen videos, never seen one in the flesh) it's obvious as soon as the snake moves, and you should get a chance to take a good look at the snake before you buy it so I don't think you'll be caught unawares. It's fairly rare anyway, certainly I've not seen any in any pet shops, so I doubt you'll come across one, but of course it's good to know just in case. As for whether they suffer, no one can say for certain. But I think it's best to assume that does cause at least discomfort, and possibly pain and stress, and therefore not breed any snake with it nor closely related to one that has it (it is a recessive gene so can be carried without the snake showing any symptoms, and then passed on to offspring).

 

From what I read when researching this, its deemed ok for 5 generations to be inbred, after that any gene deformities that there might be will start to appear.

 

Thanks for the info guys. It's good to know this stuff. Also, very glad that it will be hard to buy a snake that is a star gazer by accident- it's not something I would want for a pet.

 

Corn snakes don't outwardly show any ill effects from inbreeding as some Royals etc do (i.e. wobbling with Spider gene) but Corns can be incredibly inbred, which *may* cause problems down the line.

Unfortunately inbreeding is required to produce the colour morphs that we see today, and also I'd hazard a guess that the population of corn snakes in the UK is far greater than the numbers originally brought in- this is definately the case of the species as a whole being descended from far fewer wild animals- so I expect the genetic diversity of the captive population isn't as large as one might think.

Unfortunately I have seen and heard of many corns mysteriously dying around adolescence for no apparent reason- of which their genes may or may not be a factor. I know of at least one person who has been put off keeping corns for this reason (they are very successful with other North American ratsnakes) and I must admit that after losing two of my own I am starting to go the same way...

I'd probably rehome an older individual, as once they reach full adulthood it seems a safe bet that they'll continue to reach a good age (15+)

Good luck though- corns are great snakes!

 

Unfortunately I have seen and heard of many corns mysteriously dying around adolescence for no apparent reason- of which their genes may or may not be a factor. I know of at least one person who has been put off keeping corns for this reason (they are very successful with other North American ratsnakes) and I must admit that after losing two of my own I am starting to go the same way...

I'd probably rehome an older individual, as once they reach full adulthood it seems a safe bet that they'll continue to reach a good age (15+)

I am surprised and saddened to hear this, as this is the first time I've heard of it. Perhaps it's just that corns are so much more common than any other rat snake species in the UK market that we're more likely to see surprise deaths in them? Thankfully I don't know of anyone this has happened to, and my own 1.75 year old corn seems fit as a fiddle.

 

I'm very sorry to hear that, Iron_Clover.

Out of interest, at what point do you think they will be 'out of the woods' so to speak with the sudden death problems? I mean, I know it's not 100% certain any time, but... a year? Two years?

 

From my personal experience, I've had two male corns that have gone at around 3-5 years of age, basically after one or two years of reaching breeding age (but not fully grown).

I can't say for certain about the others, but I would assume it would be similar as I know of many, many adult corn snakes of a good age, both from being kept with their owners for all that time and also coming through for re-homing ( admittedly you have to make an educated guess, buy you can definitely tell an elderly corn!).
I would say that the older corns I tend to see are normal morphs or fairly simple, such as amel.

I would probably say it's a safe bet that your snakes won't suffer the same fate, otherwise we would hear about it a lot more here for example, but unfortunately it does seem to be something that happens more than it should.

EDIT:
It doesn't help that when it does happen, people probably put it down to being something unfortunate that no-one else has trouble with. However, when I mentioned it to others (real people, not the internet) you start to hear of more bad experiences, but it is still a minority and tends to be where they have lots of corns from different sources- I know that the breeder of one of my animals had not come across it before.

 

Couple of points:

1) You will definately know a stargazer if you see one. We have worked quite hard to ensure that one is never sold in the UK, although you may see us / others give away animals for testbreeding purposes to certain people.
2) Het stargazer animals will be completely normal.
3) Inbreeding is quite common, but as said before the animals appear very resistant to it. The most common inbreeding defect is probably kinking - used to be more in lavender lines but these days we get more kinks in our lava lines. We do not sell or breed from kinked animals and don't repeat breedings that produce kinked animals.
4) Not sure that I have heard of it being common for animals to die randomly in adolescence. I would say there is a higher mortality rate in the first 9 months or so - we do get the odd hatchling each year that randomly turns up its toes for no apparent reason despite good feeding etc. That being said, corns are known to suffer from cardiomyopathy. I don;t have any stats for the prevalence in the population, but we have had 1 male die of it (random death at age 4 I think) and another female this year (unconfirmed as yet). Whilst 2 may sound like a lot, percentage wise with regard to the rest of the collection, it is not high.

 

4) Not sure that I have heard of it being common for animals to die randomly in adolescence. I would say there is a higher mortality rate in the first 9 months or so - we do get the odd hatchling each year that randomly turns up its toes for no apparent reason despite good feeding etc. That being said, corns are known to suffer from cardiomyopathy. I don;t have any stats for the prevalence in the population, but we have had 1 male die of it (random death at age 4 I think) and another female this year (unconfirmed as yet). Whilst 2 may sound like a lot, percentage wise with regard to the rest of the collection, it is not high.

Considering how many corns you guys have at Procorns (from what I understand) two randomly up and dying doesn't sound like a lot. Sometimes in life animals just have something wrong inside that never gets diagnosed until they sadly peg it. I've never heard of it being more common in particular species, but it would be very interesting to get some data on it. It would also be interesting for some studies to be done where numerous members of various species are genetically tested to determine the levels of inbreeding (and in some cases, hybridisation, but that's another matter) in these species. Wish some researchers would attempt it. If not, perhaps I will, one day *muses*

 

Thanks.

I'm sure you can appreciate, that as a newbie it's quite worrying to think of a beloved pet dying unexpectedly for no apparent reason. One of the (many, MANY) reasons I want a snake is because they are not short-term pets. I know death can happen to anyone (snake or human) at any time, but still- if I can avoid it, I'd rather do that.

Again, thanks for the info and advice guys!