[wilkinss77]

The photos are lost, if this was the thread recently referred to; RE: Hognose bite

That sounds like the account described by Adam, April Taylor's husband after their hog nailed him.

 

[Thrasops]

The photos are lost, if this was the thread recently referred to; RE: Hognose bite

I can provide plenty of pictures of Hog-nosed snake bites for the edification of anybody reading this thread in the future.

While severe bites are supposedly rare (and 'supposedly' is a relative term, I personally know 8 or 9 people that have been envenomated by Heterodon), some of the possible symptoms from a bite from a Western Hognose are: bullae (fluid-filled blisters), hyperpigmentation (skin discoloration), ecchymosis (skin discolouration from bruising) and edema (swelling) which have all been reported MULTIPLE times in medical literature. Also more recently thrombocytopenia (drastic loss of blood platelet count) has been reported after a bite.

There is a tendency to view each case as an 'isolated' or 'one off' incident but the truth is there are records of envenomations dating back to the sixties; there's nothing "one off" or "isolated" about them. It may not happen OFTEN (although nobody is sure HOW often it actually does happen as most bites go unreported - as above, I am personally aware of at least eight acquaintances that have experienced relatively severe adverse effects from Heterodon bites in the last few years alone, including one that ended up having a permanently disfiguring fasciotomy as a result, whether that was truly necessary or the result of bumbling surgeon I do not know) but it can and does happen and there is a robust medical literature to support this.

Here is some relevant literature (SciHub is your friend!):

Bragg, Arthur N. "Is Heterodon venomous?." Herpetologica 16.2 (1960): 121-123.

Grogan, William L. "Effects of accidental envenomation from the saliva of the eastern hognose snake, Heterodon platyrhinos." Herpetologica 30.3 (1974): 248-249.

Weinstein, Scott A., and Daniel E. Keyler. "Local envenoming by the Western hognose snake (Heterodon nasicus): a case report and review of medically significant Heterodon bites." Toxicon 54.3 (2009): 354-360.

Morris, Michael A. "Envenomation from the bite of Heterodon nasicus(Serpentes: Colubridae)." Herpetologica 41.3 (1985): 361-363.

Averill-Murray, Roy C. "Natural history of the western hog-nosed snake (Heterodon nasicus) with notes on envenomation." Sonoran Herpetologist 19.9 (2006): 98-101.

Phillips, S., Rose, B., Kulig, K., Brent, J., 1997. Envenomation from the bite of the Western hognose snake. J. Toxicol. Clin. Toxicol. 35, 532.

Brandehoff, Nicklaus, et al. "First reported case of thrombocytopenia from a Heterodon nasicus envenomation." Toxicon 157 (2019): 12-17.


There are several pictures of different bites from this species. And they are likely to keep happening as long as people keep making out these snakes are harmless. My opinion is that as long as people downplay what this snake is capable of, we will see more cases like this as people just do not know about their potential and they become more widely kept.

A case posted on the RFUK facebook group a few years back where somebody had to received a fasciotomy (a surgical incision where the body tissue is cut to relieve pressure due to swelling, in this case to prevent damage to a nerve).

The first bite above, half a year on. Nobody said the effects would fade quickly!

A bite shared in 2019 by Nancy A Spechtenhauser that she had received a few hours earlier:

 

[wilkinss77]

@ Thrasops- I wonder how many other 'harmless' rear fanged snakes are more dangerous than commonly believed?

 

[Malc]

@ Thrasops- I wonder how many other 'harmless' rear fanged snakes are more dangerous than commonly believed?

I've personally seen what happens to someone's hand after a mangrove bite... not pleasant

 

[Thrasops]

@ Thrasops- I wonder how many other 'harmless' rear fanged snakes are more dangerous than commonly believed?

With the exception of the particularly dangerous species like the Boomslang, it is always going to depend a lot upon circumstances - size of the snake, reaction of the person being bitten, how long the bite lasts, where on the body the bite occurs (fingers are easier to envenomate), how much venom is injected, even whether the bite is through clothes or not.

If the snake is rear-fanged (opisthoglyphous), that means the snake is venomous.
If the snake is venomous that means there is at least a potential, however slim, for a reaction.

Not all venomous snakes are dangerous to humans - I would bet something like a little Macroprotodon (Hooded snake/ False smooth snake) would barely be capable of creating a swelling to match a bee sting even under bad circumstances.

On the other end of the spectrum you have things like Rhabdophis (Asian keelbacks) which used to be considered harmless and can often be free handled quite safely as they usually are reluctant to bite - but which at least three species (R. subminiatus, R. lateralis and R. tigrinus) have caused extremely serious envenomations and even death. There are nearly thirty species in that genus, how prepared would you be to bet that all of the others are 'safe?' I would not personally which is why I always use hooks with them when I encounter them in the wild.

My philosophy is - getting bitten by any venomous species should be considered a big mistake and handling them carelessly is pretty stupid as you never know what can happen on a bad day. Even the relatively mild symptoms described above such as 'swelling' sound like not much but actually can mean days and even weeks of intense pain.

 

[Malc]

With the exception of the particularly dangerous species like the Boomslang, it is always going to depend a lot upon circumstances - size of the snake, reaction of the person being bitten, how long the bite lasts, where on the body the bite occurs (fingers are easier to envenomate), how much venom is injected, even whether the bite is through clothes or not.

This is the problem. It's really going to be down to the reaction produced by the individuals immune system. You only have to look at the variation in how people reacted to the same covid vaccine. Some had nothing more than a sore arm where the injection went in, whilst others were knocked for six with full on flu symptoms and needed to spend a day or two in bed.

My concern is that often people who get hogs have no idea how they will react and are complacent with the handling. Combine that with a snake that has a high food drive and risk of a bad bite is inevitable

 

[Thrasops]

This is the problem. It's really going to be down to the reaction produced by the individuals immune system. You only have to look at the variation in how people reacted to the same covid vaccine. Some had nothing more than a sore arm where the injection went in, whilst others were knocked for six with full on flu symptoms and needed to spend a day or two in bed.

My concern is that often people who get hogs have no idea how they will react and are complacent with the handling. Combine that with a snake that has a high food drive and risk of a bad bite is inevitable

Exactly. This is also why you often see people state 'I have been bitten lots of times by one and nothing happened.'

I had been nipped a few times by my Thrasops jacksonii without any kind of reaction before I took a bite that in relative terms was more medically significant, painful and longer lasting than a bite from many of the more innocuous DWA species (for example Wolfgang Wuster stated it was far nastier than the average Adder bite - an Adder potentially can kill you though so is of course capable of doing worse).

Even if nothing has happened with prior bites, perhaps the circumstances just were not right those times and it does not guarantee that a more severe envenomation cannot happen down the line under more unfortunate circumstances. I would hate for people to take away that it is solely down to immune system or that it is more like 'an allergy' - Hognoses are venomous and cause venomous reactions, due to the type of venom, amount they inject and their (relatively) limited capability to envenomate a human this is why bite severity varies.